MyHeritage -- Snaps Up Geni.com

Private User,
I disagree that your data was "sold"? Geni as a whole is now owned by somebody else, that much is true, but all that's changed is the letterhead on their stationary, if even that. But the data is the same data, and the platform is the exact same platform. The only difference being that now "Geni" has the means and the leverage to make itself MUCH better.

Yes, they could have handled ending the life-time subscriptions better, that is true, and they came around to offer a full refund to the few hundred users involved. In the internet economy NO company expects to last forever, as such "life-time" subscriptions are rather unheard of, and often a sign of "need money now" desperation. So had any company making such an offer had to shut-down, the customers would have been left dry. In this case Geni said "Our mistake, here's your money back". I'd consider that a MUCH better resolution.

What I bought from Geni was a platform for my research and the conditions was that I paid it all at once, for lifetime. I compare it to renting a house or farm for lifetime. I invest work in it under certain conditions. If somebody could take that away form me after five years (and the can not under all laws I know) they could use my work and investment to higher the rent from me, I under what could actually be emotional blackmail after what i have invested.

What MyHeritage bought from Geni was not only a platform but also the work the users have done in buliding the big tree and the idea of the collaborate efforts giving a result bigger than the platform itself. You could compare also this to real estate. They did not buy a desert. but a property full of invested work: buildings, agriculture etc. Now they either illegally shorten the contracts with the tenants so that they can increase the rent in an unforseeable way in the future, or drive away the tenants and inhabitants in order to sell the houses and fields to others. But will they buy it if they now they can also be driven away anytime, regardless of the original conditions of the contract?

Shmuel-Aharon / שמואל-אהרן Kam / קם (Kahn / קאן)
I wrote my propoer answer above this, but it seems to me that what you are saying is "Oh come on, were you so naive that you thought Geni was a seroius actor on the market when you bought from them, really you should have understood they were just a bunch of gyus in 'need of money now" desperation' and you lifetime subscrivbers are to blame yourself. I think a rational buyer who has the money buy a lifetime subscripiton so that we will not be in the hands of how the other part in the contract experience the amount and the timing of their money needs. How will MyHertage feel about "needing money" in five years time?

Ella,
I'm saying that GENI made a BAD move, and had to backpedal, NOT the people who took them up on it.

MyHeritage bought Geni, for pretty much the exact same reasons that Geni created itself a) to create an awesome collaborative genealogy tool, unlike any other, but ALSO b) to make money in doing so. Had someone other than MyHeritage bought the company, someone who ONLY wanted to make money, then I would agree with you. Initially I was ALSO rather apprehensive of the buy-out, even hostile (I have worked for hi-tech companies for companies like Geni). But then a group of curators were invited to meet the CEO of MyHeritage and you know what, he just as crazy about genealogy as the rest of us.

Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn / שמואל-אהרן קם (קאן - I hadn't realised they'd convinced cynical you so much. If YOU'RE convinced, that counts for a lot for me!

It is all very simple, when you by a company you also buy the obligations and contracts they have. You cannot change them retroactively. What are the conditions for you who are curators?

conditions regarding what? we are volunteers.

Ella, while I also find it objectionable, contracts especially for online services change all of the time, even retroactively. I never checked, but this possibility probably IS in the contract itself, definitely in the TOS (Terms Of Service).

Ella,
I agree with Shmuel and others. Online service terms change almost all the time, especially when business is bad. Geni business must have been pretty bad if they had to be bought out - and in this takeover - rescued.
There is no guarantee that even MyHeritage will stay as is indefinitely. Nobody knows what will happen in say 10 years from now. Will MH be bought by a larger holding company? Or will it swallow other competitors? This happens all the time in high-tech and bio-tech start-ups and companies, why not with genea-tech? In these takeovers not all obligations are expected to be honored.
In the past, I expected Geni to change the terms of service and abolish "life-time" subscription had it even stayed in business, because it could not have been a good deal for the company. The fact that MH does not support it, and is willing to compensate the current lifetime subscribers of Geni and buyout these subscription, is in my mind a sign of a good-business track of MH.

Ella,

There is plenty of room for disagreement, but I can tell you how I see it.

Geni was bought by MH. I agree with Yigal. By definition, that means it failed -- I think. Geni had a great idea, though. We're all lucky MH thought there was something worth buying and worth keeping open. The attraction certainly wasn't the data. MH already had more data than Geni, and what it got was mostly duplicates of what it already had.

MH could have just taken the technology, closed Geni, and told everyone to move to MH. They didn't do that, but maybe some of the people who are unhappy now think that would have been better.

Me, I'm happy to have a path, any path, that preserves the work I've already done. None of it is "mine" anyway. As soon as I put in out on the Internet, it belongs to everyone to use and share and build on.

MH is preserving my data, and as a genealogist that's all I care about. I love them for that, and I plan to cooperate with them to improve their business so I can keep working on my genealogy.

I don't believe we can say that a business failed by definition because it is bought by another business. MH bought Geni because it saw that as a good value proposition.

In an acquisition, the sale price gives more indication of the value of the acquired business than the fact that the transaction occurred.

Very good point Private User. I have also been involved like Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn / שמואל-אהרן קם (קאן with a lot of start ups and venture led companies and for many (most) the end game is to be acquired or to merge with another company. Success is having value to investors or to buyers. Value comes in many forms -- technology, patents, customers, trade secrets, etc.

It is of course normal and not bad at all that companies are bougt and sold. This is not an issue.
But if we are to have a functioning society where you can have agreement and buy and sell things ther must be trust and fulfilling of promises.
How can MyHertage become a thriving company if they do not have and do not show an intention to be fair with their customers?

Here's another example, not exactly the same I admit, Family Tree DNA has these regular sales. I ordered a kit for my son. By the time he got around to actually sending it in (many months later), a great sale was on but I had paid the full price. They change their prices up and down constantly but that's just the way it is. Same thing for 23andme. These new wave, new services small companies try out business models in my experience.

Not that I don't agree with you Private User, I'm just agreeing also with the others that young, small business in this era tend to go through a lot of business model changes.

I think you missed the point, Hatte. You have other points, and I readily agree with you on those, but my point is that the old Geni is gone. Everything could have disappeared, and perhaps would have if Geni hadn't been purchased by MH.

Gotcha and I did understand that point. And from a legal standpoint, the old entity is gone.

Maybe the issue being played out here is something like this.

1. We all recognise that there are risks of buying a product or service where we pay now for something that will be delivered at least in part at some future date. The provider might go out of business, the product or service might turn out to be of lower worth than we expected, etc.

2. Perhaps one group of people is saying (and maybe Ella is in this group) that in this case Geni is still there - it didn't go out of business, so we expect Geni (or its purchaser) to keep to its contract.

3. Then another group of people is saying (and maybe Justin is in this group): Look at the bigger picture. The outcome could have been a lot worse. Geni could have gone under or been closed down. That outcome would have been a lot worse. Be thankful that Geni is still going, and ex lifetime Pro are getting heir money back, and five further years subscription.

4. To that, the first group retorts that isn't the point. Yes it could have been a lot worse, but that isn't what happened, and given that Geni is still in business it should have honoured its lifetime commitments.

And so on - both sides have their point and don't head towards mutual agreement.

Then there's a second segmentation:

Group A say: You should have realised Lifetime couldn't mean Lifetime, Geni was a start-up, you can't have expected it to stay as it was offering the same products for the whole of your lifetime. And you got your money back and Pro for five more years, so you didn't really lose out at all.

Group B say: No. I took Geni at their word. They offered Lifetime so that's what I expected to get and retain.

Again two arguments that just aren't finding common ground.

If anyone has any idea how to find common ground here, I am sure that would interest all who are following this discussion.

David - Nice analysis. My views are definitely 2 and 4; and Group B.

It's no doubt MyHeritage bought Geni in total. Not parts of Geni, but Geni with it's assets including the different kinds of agreements. Of course it could have become worse; Geni could have gone bancrupt. But it did not. MyH saw the possibiities of doing business and bought the technique, the nachines, the system and the stock of customers.

Normally a new owner act a bit careful when meeting the new customers. One thing, in this case, would have been to take care of the big stock of non-paying users (not customers) and tell them to keep their own familytree for lets say 6 months on MyH and tell "in six months time all the non-paying accounts on Geni will be closed and you will instead be able to have your 100 profiles on MyH for free". That would meen no big change to this group. It's like changing the name only on any other product for sale.

But what did MyH do? They invited the non-paying users to uncontrolled free use in the old company Geni???!!!! NB I call them users and not customers. Why? Actually I cannot see even one constructive good thought with this. Especially not compared to the paying-customers of whom many had paid for Lifetime. I am not one of those and I belive my account will just drain out from MyH-view. I have not got any information so far. No information like the Lifetimers "Off you go! Bye. Bye. Okej we can send you some candy."

This MyH-behaviour is maybe not new in worldhistory. Everyone has to know ine could become cheated anywhere by anyone. But in genealogy!? I'm of course satysfied I did not pay for lifetime. I was so close that I did not decide until the last minute of the payingroutine. So it was not a question of smartness or normal protection from theaft or anything like that from my side. It was more a question of "maybe in the future I think I will have to be careful with my cash today". But how close I was to be cheated and then met by a powerful abuse like the behaviour from MyH.

Agneta Åhrberg. I think what you say is utopia and arbitrary interpretation of things that might happen. I really dont think that free users will be "exiled" from Geni. You see...what happened was that privileges of PRO or paying users were transferred also to free users. Would you call that shooing away free users? It´s more like giving them rights so they can contribute in the big tree. Geni could have gone bancrupt? Might be so, but instead of pushing people again to pay and pay more for PRO account they gave the rights away to free users. So there must be another way to save Geni if it is so as you said or speculated.

My english is not fluently. But for sure my interpretation is at first not arbitrary and seccond not a question "of things that might happen." My description of what did happen, or rather what was done, is a description of what was done. That was that MyH did not say "Welcome to MyH" all non-paying users. You will keep your rights on Geni and on MyH you will have this possibilities." Historically we all know what happened on Geni when the differentiation of accounts was introduced. And why invite them all back to a company that was sold??? And treat the life-timers as something the cat had brought into the house!

All companies could be unlucky, but the foundation is the thought of longterm survival. Any company could fall and what I meen with "Of course it could have become worse; Geni could have gone bancrupt. But it did not." (The price for MyH would have become lower, but a lot more work I belive to reorganize.)

I cannot understand the logic of "instead of pushing people again to pay and pay more for PRO account they gave the rights away to free users".

There is one thing we think the same about and that is: The Geni idea and goal is great and is worth working for. Selling "genealogy" like MyH is not the same thing. Geni is something else and if I should speculate I would do it in a direction of how to save the collaborative idea/goal of Geni. As many have noticed there are many prepared to pat for the idea of actually give and take care of the "product" to the company.

I'd like to add of how your thought about the way of saving Geni, Jaak, and rather use the word 'compare' than 'specualte'. Compare IF the product/service the PROs, lifetimers or other paying PROs was an insurence for healthcare. The rules about what is sold are about the same and tells what is agreed.

Health care is financed somewhat different in USA and Sweden, but eventhough a comparision is possible for the behaviour between the insurance company, the hospitals and the customers/patients. So what IF a change like this? They who have paid health insurrence for lifetime would probarbly get at least a little bit anoid if they got a message like "The new Company have no service like that. Your are insured for five years more." The insurance buyers, like me, who pays on monthly or yearly base would get at least surprised. Maybe check up the new agreements. I for sure would get extremally surprised if all non-paying possible patients was invited to use the hospitals fully and for free. It's not hard to understand if the lifetimers would get angry and feel cheated.

Not even in Sweden where we have "Free healthcare for everyone" this is the real case. We do pay the healthcare with taxes instead of insurances. And if not taxpayer in Sweden the hospital doors are closed. It's not enough to be a swedish citizen but one has to have payed tax in Sweden for the last five years to get healthcare for (almost) free.

I know the hospital doors are closed to many without insurances in USA.
It seems as the MyH philosophy of business does not work in USA health care.

MyH behaviour against the lifetimer-PROs is like cutting off every promise in the agreement with them and at the same time open the hospital doors to everyone. I can assure you healthcare staff would not say no. They would just fill in the forms and the bills and send them to the insurance company.

Agneta Åhrberg What i said was about the second section of the post
"... take care of the big stock of non-paying users (not customers) and tell them to keep their own familytree for lets say 6 months on MyH and tell "in six months time all the non-paying accounts on Geni will be closed and you will instead be able to have your 100 profiles on MyH for free". "

That´s not what has happened, that´s speculation. The logic about giving the rights away to free users and quitting lifetime-subscriptions is sustainability and that´s exactly what you cannot understand. Non-paying users don´t have to be punished for wanting to contribute their knowledge to the big tree.

If you wish to compare lifetimers and healthcare then yes, this is not exactly the same. Isn´t it so that if you work (that means you pay some kind of social security tax) then you have healthcare at that time. Or do you have to pay for health-care insurance regardless you have a job or not? If you don´t work then you get only basic and inevitable help. So do you mean that you should be able to pay all the social security tax at once in advance so you can have healthcare for life? Who knows how much you will have to pay and how long will you live? How much the health-care insurance giver has to spend on you etc. There are way too many variables that can change a lot, so you can imagine why lifetime subscriptions had to be quit. Yes, non-paying "patients" can not be left without medical care and guess all what is now allowed to free users is the baseline or inevitable help.

No, of course noone has to be "punished". But in fact the Lifetimers was punished and the non-paying was given something although they did no more than the Lifetimers: They contributed.

My comparison is between the different users of Geni and different users i healthcare. Of course it's not exactly the same as nothing ever is.

About the differences between swedish and US social security there are substanstial differences. All people in Sweden are secured. All people with income pay taxes. All children up til 20 years of age pay no fees if using health- or dentist care. Above 20 years of age we pay fees (up til 1 200 SEK a year) if using care. If hospital care is needed adults pay a kind of fee for "housing" (food and things needed during the hospital stay). So the right to use healthcare including drugs needed is not connected to you in person paying or not. It's connected to your needs. So if I'm healthy I pay my taxes including healthcare and fireprotecition and water in the community and polisservice and courts. Healthcare is not excluded from these services. We all pay for these things (and free schools for all children) if we have a job or any other incom. If my neighbour loose her job and get ill I can feel safe she will get healthcare and medicine.

It's a big difference from in USA (and China and India ...), where you have "out of pocket"-financed healthcare. I'm 60 years old and quite sure I'll have no more children of my own : ). My taxpayments are used for taking good care of young pregnant women and the deliveries of babies. That kind of care is completely free of all charges for the patients. It's in law stated that all pregnant woman should have this care for free and it should be paid by us all together.

But be sure we pay a lot of taxes! If we have incomes. If we have no incomes we pay no taxes. If we have low incomes we pay less. We still have the rights to good care from the moment we are born until we die. So there are big differences between swedish and american insurances.

It's maybe better to compare US customers and I think you are aware of that "if no payments there will be only basic and inevitable help" delivered.

But here MyH "delivered" full rights to non-paying and behaved awfully bad to Lifetimers. As if the last mentione group was too big and unfortunately did not die young enough. To me this sounds "sick". The lifetimers will die sometime and MyH bought these agreement when they bought Geni. To come in with a change in that agreements you need several och better arguments, that was not knewn at the time of "MyH snaps up Geni". Of course it was known people/customers/users/contributors live until they die at different ages. Actuallt the Lifetimers do contribute too, don't they?

"several och better" - right! och=and. You know i am an Estonian, that means we are from neighbouring countries and by the way we have also similar health care system, but lets not turn out of the subject. I just think you did not read my post carefully enough to understand the point, but we can continue the discussion privately also, others might get bored.

No, I've not checked from where you are but I thought Jaak sounds from the other side of the Baltic sea. And you then know some of the health care system within EU and maybe outside EU too. (And you know och =and).

The issue is how extremally bad Lifetimers was treated and the axtraordinary good non-payers was treated with when MyH snapped up Geni. It's somewhat offending to other paying-users too, but it's not as the treatment of the lifetimers. Promised is somehow promised. And MyH bought Geni with thoose promises. I could agree to some changes. But this??

To compare the agreements between different areas could raise the understanding and solve problems. Helathcare is a non-compusory "business" as Genealogy. Both maybe boring as long as you don't really need it.

As a lifetimer, I am not the least bit offended the free users now have more benefits. I think Geni made a mistake when they limited the free access as highly as they did, and I'm happy that that mistake was corrected. I remain mystified as to why MyH would choose to correct this problem while creating another by quite frankly screwing over the lifetimers. Refusing to sell the option any more - perfectly understandable and within their rights. But so long as Geni continues to be available, they are absolutely wrong to refuse to honour the original contract with lifetimers.

Agneta Åhrberg, as one of those free users that you want to screw over, I have little sympathy for your plight. If I had paid for something, and I was then told "I'm sorry, we don't have this product in stock any more" I might be upset, but if the people I was buying it from said "We'll give you your money back," I'd be satisfied. In your case you not only got your money back, you got 5 years of a paid membership free. That's a pretty good deal, in my opinion.

Suppose you went to a store to buy something that the dealer thought he could get from his wholesaler. If he later told you "they don't make this any more," would you expect ANYTHING more than getting your money back? But in your case you got MORE than your money back; you got a 5-year paid membership FREE. What do you have to complain about? You got more than you had a right to!

I also had a lifetime membership - and I agree totally with Jess.

Are folks who signed up for automatic renewal still getting it at the original rate they paid when they started? Is MyHeritage planning to continue to honor this policy?

If so, wondering to how much more those of us who instead chose Lifetime Membership will be forced to pay over say 20 or 30 years [even assuming we do take the refund] than those who chose a lesser term with automatic renewal?

I also have a lifetime membership - and I agree totally with Jess!