Louis Cordier, SV/PROG - Origin and ancestry of Louis Cordier

I have been following the Martinete/Cordier discussions with much interest but also with some frustration as I am not home at present and so can't access my records.
I obtained my information from a family tree compiled by the children of Schalk Willem van Heerden 1877-1961 and Heila Magdalena Jacobs (my grandfather's sister) for their golden wedding anniversary.
I cant quite recall when it was researched (1953 come to mind) but must have been before 1961. I was told that a family member had travelled to France to find the information.
Now I don't have that document with me so I can't say what that information is.
Sorry I can't be of more help.

Veronica, how wonderful! When will you be going home?

I was never happy with Louis Cordier from Orleans since I found the marriage entry.

The daughters' birth records both have: 'Lieu d'origine : Bournonville INFOS COMPLEMENTAIRES RPR' - This last means they were Protestant and the first that their place of origin was Bournonville.

I've found nothing in the Bournonville online archives, however.

I think we have the makings of another Ace Armchair Research Team here.. You go gals! :-) It's so great that these discussions are being had.

I've advertised this discussion to other SA Geni members on our FB page http://www.facebook.com/groups/243811932355680/ - maybe someone has some docs under their mattress that can help :-)

Hear Hear... Soon our Geni collaborators will be making genealogical waves!

Thanks all of you. I am also following with great interest as it is my - 1 of many - gggf's.

Thanks for the info, I will be following this profile. I am still a novice researcher and have loads to learn, but your info is certainly helping a lot.

Does anyone know how he died? Is there any records available in the South African National Archives?

Louis Cordier was already living in Bournonville at the time of his marriage to Francoise Martinet. See the marriage record here : http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000022099400916

I'd like to revisit this:

M.Boucher. (1981). French speakers at the Cape: The European Background. Pretoria, UNISA 125. p 119 says:

"It is possible that the refugee Louis Cordier came from the Orleanais. There was a Louis Cordier at Blois, but the name appears among the Catholic baptisms of that town. The son of a master lace-maker Louis Cordier, Snr and his wife Jeanne Cordier he was baptized on March 29, 1656. [Ms. T 75, A. TROUESSART (comp.), Registres de Saint-Solenne, B, II, 1652-1696: p. 48 (Bibl. mun. Blois) … Jeanne married Mathieu Frachas... The Frachas farm, however, was named Orleans, [121. BOTHA, French refugees, p. 118] a city with which he had no apparent connection. Was it perhaps chosen with reference to the French background of his wife’s father? There is some evidence to suggest that Francoise Martinet was from north-eastern France … The Cordier background, however, remains uncertain. He could possibly have come from the north-east like his wife; [He has been placed firmly in that area by S.F. DU TOIT (‘Hugenote- families uit Noord-Frankryk; hier en.. .daar’, Bulletin, Huguenot Society of South Africa, 4, 1966, p. 13). We may note, somewhat to the south, the Louis Cordier of Meaux, condemned to death, but sent to the galleys (HAAG and HAAG, France protestante, IV, pp. 58-59)]..again, a Cordier family lived at Espenel, near Pontaix in Dauphine, the Cape minister Pierre Simond’s home province. [E 5411, David Marcel, Actes, Pontaix, 1660-1674: Sept. 28, 1666, f. 186 (AD Drome).]… Simond may have recommended Louis Cordier as an elder at Drakenstein in 1691 because he was a fellow-Dauphinois, although of the other members of the first consistory there only Pierre Meyer came from that province. He may equally have been chosen as a man familiar with the Dutch language, a circumstance which would suggest a longer acquaintance with the United Provinces than had most Cape refugees. There were certainly Cordiers at Haarlem as early as 1627.[ BOTHA, French refugees, p. 38.] One thing, however, is certain. The Paris silk-weaver Jacques Cordier, in London and Amsterdam before the revocation, was not, on the evidence submitted by A.P. Hands and Irene Scouloudi, related to the Cape family.[ French Protestant refugees, p. 62. See also BOTHA, French refugees, pp. 63; 68.]"

We even have Louis Snr coming to SA and dying in Paarl? https://www.geni.com/discussions/159623 - although I;m guessing this is a mash up with Louis SV/Prog

The dates work - he would have been about 23 at the death of first wife Marie Marquart on 3 June 1679 in Bournonville, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France,

& his second marriage to Francoise Martinet in Espense, Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France on 03/12/1679

Etat Civil - Acte de mariage/Mariage Date de l'acte : 1679.12.03 (03/12/1679) Lieu de l'acte : Epense (51) SUJET : MARTINET Francoise Père : Philippe + Mère : BURGEAT Marie CONJOINT : CORDIER Louis Infos complémentaires : Veuf de: MACART Marie(vf)
(Translation: Civil Status - Certificate of Marriage / Wedding Date act: 1679.12.03 (03/12/1679) Place of execution: Epense (51) TOPIC: Francoise Martinet Father: Philippe + Mother: Marie BURGEAT SPOUSE: Louis CORDIER More info: Widower of: Macart Marie (vF)) on http://www.genealogie.com/v4/genealogie/Search.mvc/Search

Today third December sixteen hundred seventy-nine was blessed in this church the marriage of Louis Cordier widower of Maria Maquart and Francoise Martinet daughter of the deceased Philippe Martinet and Marie Burgeat residing in Donnement. Said Louis Cordier residing in Bournonville. In the presence of the brothers Jean and David Martinet, Theodore Layr and Jean Dommartin who all have signed Translation of a transcription from the archives: ETAT CIVIL, Baptêmes, mariages, sépultures 1626-1691, Registres paroissiaux. http://archives.marne.fr.

(Thanks to Private User for uploading these)

A Catholic baptism in Orleans in 1656, doesn't preclude a conversion to Protestantism as an adult.

Private's finding that "the daughters' birth records both have: 'Lieu d'origine : Bournonville INFOS COMPLEMENTAIRES RPR' - This last means they were Protestant and the first that their place of origin was Bournonville."
suggests that Francoise Martinet moved to where her husband was living in Bournonville, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France.

Their daughter's name, Jeanne, may be an indicator of her paternal grandmother's name, but that's not any kind of clincher.

Hi Sharon

Do you have a source for Bournonville being the one in Nord-Pas-de-Calais? I think it is much more likely that the Bournonville in question is at this location 48.979018, 4.921109 in Champagne-Ardenne, just up the road from Epense where Louis was married to Francoise Martinet and where their daughters Susanne and Jeanne where baptised (see the records here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9396-ZKVY-7?i=63&wc=9WL... and here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9396-ZKV1-W?i=75&wc=9WL...).

On Louis' profile here, it shows that the daughter Louisa Maria that was born between Susanne and Jeanne was born in Guisnes, Nord-Pas-de-Calais. That strikes me as being somewhat unlikely. Do you know if there is a source for this?

There was another Bournonville? That explains a lot - I've been trying to figure out why they kept going all the way to Epense for important occasions - was going to research Protestant temples in the area this morning. That makes more sense tho. Thankyou - will look into that rather.
I haven't even started on the children's profiles. (I descend directly from two of the daughters via two different grandparents of mine :-)) Will get back to you on that.

http://trip-suggest.com/france/champagne-ardenne/bournonville/

Private User, I think I took the place from the place that google maps finds first if you put in Bournonville. (Obviously Jansi did too, and perhaps that's where some older genealogists got pas-de-Calais from too)
It never occurred to me there might be two places. I'll remove.

I couldn't find references to its existence before the French Revolution - Did you find any?

(PS: It would be good if we could transcribe that death letter you uploaded. I've asked for French speakers to come and help with that)

Is our only reason for assuming Louis' birth place in Orleanais, the farm name of his son-in-law? Or is it referenced in another document? Does anyone know?

The more reading I do around this time period, the less it seems likely that a person baptised Catholic would convert to Protestantism as an adult at this time, when the numbers of Huguenots are declining drastically.
The one possibility is that he converted in order to marry either Marie Marquart or Francoise Martinet – which did, apparently, happen both ways (according to Boucher).

But, in this doc https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/51229_-_%C3%89pense that Private User is busy with, there is definitely more than one Protestant Courdier family in Bournonville in 1662: “COCHIN-CORDIER, CORDIER-MARTINET.. in 1685, after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes, Protestant preaching in Espence is banned. .. Some of the Bournonville Protestants abjured.. : some members of Bastien & Cordier families.” (It can also be seen in that document that the Martinet families in the area were Protestant., &, as Marie Marquart’s death is also recorded –this suggests the probability that she was Protestant too.)

How likely is it that more than one of the Protestant Cordiers in Bournonville had originally been Catholic & converted in order to marry a Protestant?
It’s possible that a Catholic Louis Cordier marries a Protestant Marie Marquart; and stays in the community to remarry another Protestant when she dies, and that other Cordier family member might feasibly have followed in his footseps.

But, Occam’s razor suggests that Catholic Louis & Jeanne of Orleanais may not be the SVs parents.