Margaret Buchanan (Menteith) - Is her father John or William Menteith?

" Margaret was the daughter of Sir Walter Menteth of Rusky, and granddaughter of Sir John of Menteth " (William Wallace's betrayer)

I want to chase Wikipedia's citations though.

I see no reason to question what Wiki has. Their source link is dead, but here it is elsewhere:

http://buchananspot.com/BuchananNews/StrathXXI.html
Chapter XXI - The Buchanans of Buchanan
("History of Strathendrick", pp. 283-286, written by John Guthrie Smith, published by Maclehose and Sons, Glasgow, 1896)

Maurice Buchanan married a daughter of Sir Walter Menteith of Rusky, and had a son, Walter. 21

Citations
21. Red Book of Menteith, by Sir William Fraser, Vol. II, p. 460.

Thanks for going researching Erica :-)
- Now what do you think of the Sir WALTER Menteith of Rusky vs Wiki's original WILLIAM? :-(

Wikipedia's two separate citations have Walter, son of John.

oops - been doing this line all day; obviously hallucinating :-) Thankyou!

Okay, have removed Margaret as John Menteith's daughter, leaving her as Walter Menteith's daughter - a profile I created today - and for which I can see no Duplicates at the moment.
Thanks Erica

Looked at this again today, and am still seeing William on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Buchanan page. Walter as her son
Just leaving a note here to follow this up further when anyone gets a chance, just in case we've eliminated a brother by merging a William and a Walter.

Sharon - the Wikipedia page is incorrect.

The citations are extraordinarily clear, come from the Wiki citations, and I double checked that "The Red book of MENTEITH" is considered a good source. It is primary quality and a good work of scholarship.

Margaret MENTEITH who married Sir Maurice Buchanan, 10th Laird, was the daughter of Sir Walter MENTEITH, of Rusky, and grand daughter of Sir John "the traitor."

I dont know if there was a Sir William at all. You could just revert the profile name to Walter?

You can look inside the Red Book here

http://buchananspot.com/BuchananNews/StrathXXI.html

The online edition is Vol 2 only & doesn't seem to have the genealogical tables unfortunately but you will see the primary quality of the work

http://archive.org/stream/redbookofmentev200fras#page/n5/mode/2up

Correction: the Wiki page is correct

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Buchanan

14th Century and Wars of Scottish Independence

Unenviable William Wallace Link. Sir Maurice Buchanan 10th of Buchanan married Margaret Menteth (also spelt Menteith) . Margaret was the daughter of Sir Walter Menteth of Rusky, and granddaughter of Sir John of Menteth, Sherriff of Dunbarton Castle, and Helena daughter of Gartnait, Earl of Mar. Sir John is reputed to have betrayed Sir William Wallace to king Edward I of England on 5 Aug 1305. Sir John was imprisoned by king Robert I but in 1314 “through influence of his sons-in-law; Malice, Earl of Strathern; Sir Archibald Campbell, of Lochow; and Maurice Buchanan, of Buchanan, he was released immediately before the Battle of Bannockburn, where he deported himself valiantly on the part of the Scottish king.” .

Thanks Erica - You're a star. I'm good to change it all at once. It just seemed fraught to leave half and half until I'd taken some time to double-check. The Wikipedia page is definitely oincorrect - a typo then?

What are your thoughts on the women's surnames changing, and the 'of that ilk' additions?

1) my (limited) understanding is that "of that ilk" is part of the last name. You really want to google up a better description.

2) Apparently as shown by charters, Inquiries Post Mortems, property contracts, etc., women from Scotland did not change their surname (if they had one) to their husband's. I have not looked to see how widows with property are noted in records. The most easily accessible to me records, in English translation and squinting into Latin, most commonly identifies a woman as "daughter of", "wife of," "widow of."

I am not into making rules though - just helping with this one snarl and getting back to rural North Carolina in the 18th & 19th century .... :)

The form "of that Ilk" is used by certain families in certain areas as an alternative to duplicating the surname. It means the same thing as "Buchanan of Buchanan". You have to look at the actual evidence to know which of the two forms is used by a particular family at a particular time.

Remember too that all daughters use their father's territorial designation as part of their surname, but they don't use "of that Ilk". So, the hypothetical Agnes, daughter of Maurice Buchanan of that Ilk would be Agnes Buchanan of Buchanan.

In Scottish records down to the end of the 18th century it's most common to see widows designated in property records as "Agnes Buchanan, widow of Duncan Campbell". It's very similar to what you'd see in Wales and northern England as well -- a married name is most often treated as a "nickname".

Eeeeh complicated :-)
The Scots didn't have a problem with redundancy, did they :-)

What Surname/Last Name would younger brothers have used?

Younger brothers use just the surname with no territorial designation, unless of course they have lands of their own.

:-)