Catalyntje Trico - Birth place

1) to me the Pris birth is without question. She was also clearly identified as a Walloon in her deposition & visited by her great niece ( Marie Flamen's daughter?)

2) Joris was (less clearly) of Valenciennes.

3) I believe the idea was that they were from perhaps the same region / area but he was from a larger town, she was from a more rural area.

4) we know that Joris was "orphaned" (in Colonial America & England, that meant his father was deceased) & he brought no family to the (hasty) wedding -- which seems to me have been facilitated for their role as colonists. So it would be interesting to try & figure out how they could have met, my bet being on church.

I'm off topic already but I got curious about Dutch wedding customs.:)

Here's a quick overview for Colonial America, including New Netherland:

http://www.genealogymagazine.com/coloandma.html

Oh good an English article about Colonial American customs that we can use as a tool for judging the customs of Walloons living in Holland!

I read it straight away ;)

I'm betting my borat long johns that Joris met Catharina thru his best mate Phil. Phil the borat worker from Valencennes who was living in Amsterdam and married to Catharina's big sister... come to think of it Catharina was likely living with her sister at the time in question.

In fact as Phil was maybe 10 years older than Joris it is possible that as a new comer (he'd been in Amsterdam less than a year) from down home Joris was staying in Phil's house.

Nice!

They were a little young to be getting married, correct? Normally would have acquired a bit more property and cash before setting up a household? We know Joris was employed - was Cat?

There's no age limit but under 21 you needed permission from parents.
This lack of parental permissions suggests all parents were deceased in Jan 1624, but we know this is not true as Catharina's sister writes a will in October 1624 naming her mother as a beneficiary.
So it is another example of the rules being bent for this couple, it is probably more evidence that the marriage was a rushed job and letters to and from France weren't possible in the short period between the plan being hatched and the ship sailing [pun intended].

PS the sister writing the will is a maternal 1/2 sister only so the fact she does not mention Catharina's father in the will is not an indication that he is deceased.

In fact the absence of Mary's father from the will may not even indicate that he is dead, he may just have been a dead-beat that she had no desire to leave money to.

By the by, Dutch marital relations were quite different to English at this time (sorry no link at hand) so don't view colonial Dutch women thru colonial English preconceptions.

It was a hint to get us educated on Dutch practices at the time. :). But I have read Leyden records in English of the English pilgrims there, and records from New Netherland Colony. What I was more after is an impression / description / study to put the records in their social context.

You two probably know more on the following than I do but: Wasn't it a habit to have children baptized Catholic for protection from the Catholic "overlords"?. I say this as a way of cautioning against naturally thinking that the R's and T's were regular church-goers...

2nd-ly: When was St. Nicholas at Pris built? When was the parish in Pris established?

3rdly: I think it might do well to remember that much of the Trico history hinges on the deposition to Gov. Donegan (sp?) and the interview by the Labodist (sp?) pair. These, I've read, were done when Catalyntje was quite aged.... In my humble opinion, much of family history gets altered when an octogenarian gives and account of her own life.

I've fantasized about being able to interview same of the Rapalje's acquaintances about the couple during the period, in their young adult lives, that they lived on Manhattan {before the Brooklyn era} I bet the stories they told about their past lives were largely different then than when Catalyntje was quizzed in her old age. :)

I wonder if the feminine trait of not advertising that one was older than one's husband at marriage comes into play here. (I've always thought that that was a strange vanity :))

In the end lack of congruity between her story and baptismal records doesn't change her identity that much. It's good to put the "Paris" thing to death once and for all.

Now if we could only have her story about her story about her grandparents! :);)

1st - i'd assume they were regular worshipers just not at the RC church.

2- some nice photos http://comteam.cathocambrai.com/page-163991.html original structure established 1550

3- the depositions form the basis of the record for the early colonial period, not Amsterdam nor early life. I have a copy of Shorto's Amsterdam which includes a quite clear image of the engagement record, the legendary Pris document. It's a primary source document, a 100% reliable record of exactly what happened... perhaps someone lied or was confused but basically what ever the paper says happened is what happened on the day.

By the by, I have some quotes about the reliability of the depositions, one good one for and a good one against :) I'll post them tomorrow, time for bed now.

One last thing:

"In the end lack of congruity between her story and baptismal records doesn't change her identity that much. It's good to put the "Paris" thing to death once and for all.

Now if we could only have her story about her story about her grandparents! :);)"

The problem i am raising here is the lack of congruity between the ontertrouwregister [reliable primary source] and these baptismal records [cicumstantial secondary records].

The problem with tracing her father [i think her mum is pretty good now] is that we don't even know his name! Is it Jean or Pier or Jean-Pierre or Geronimo? I suppose we could look for all 4.

Private User
I don't know if u have read this yet but either way i just want to apologise if my last two posts were a bit arrogant or overbearing. You have very kindly suggested that i am some sort of expert on this topic but the fact is that i am sure you have a much better understand of the story than i do. All i have done is immersed myself in the sources for the last week or so.

I am appreciating all the work you are doing on this and do not "hear" any arrogance on your part.
Am now wondering where the two families were living just prior to the couple's departure for Fort Orange and if they even knew what their final destination was when the stepped on board ship that fateful day....

regards,
Mike

Well technically we know exactly where Joris and Cat were living because it is recorded just a few days previously in the ondertrouw. I think Shorto gives a bit of a description of the area in Amsterdam. If you don't own it i'd recommend a trip to the library, it's a fascinating read.

As for the destination, i imagine the Company had alreaddecided that for them prior to departure

Erica Howton

You took us off topic so quickly ;)

My concern i guess boils down to "we have two women born the same year in the same region with the same last name. How certain can we be it is actually just one woman? Especially with different first names

Eh, I really try not to cross the Atlantic in other languages ....:)

Are you asking the Cat vs Pasque question? No clue.

When her name is recorded with the patronymic, it is regularly Jeronimus, an name frequently repeated among her descendants. McCracken further believes her family name to be something like Tricot, Tricaud, Tricault, Tricaut. Amsterdam Dut. Ref. Marriage Intentions (Microfilm 113.191): Joris Raparlie Den 13 January 1624 [New Style] Compareerden alvoren Jooris Raparlie van Valenchie- boratwercker out 19 Jaeren woon- op 't Waelepadt & Catharina triko van pris in Walslant geasst- met mary Fla[m]egh haar suster woon- in de Vles out 18 Jae-
[Translation: Appeared as before Joris Raparlie from Valenciennes boratworker age 19 Years residing on 't Waelepadt & Catherina triko from pris in Walslant accompanied by mary Fla[m]engh her sister residing in the Ilask age 18 years.]

I mean, this looks pretty good to me. :)

But you're skipping the fact that the name on the baptism is Pasque which has no connection to Catharina. And the father's name is Pier(re) which has no relevance to Jeronimus/Jerome.

So - you think the baptism doc is wrongly associated?

I'm sure she was Marie Flamen's (half ?) sister. Go from there?

I accept that she was 1/2 sister. And Michele is mother.
We really need French help.

FYI: Pasque - name is derived from the French name for Easter.

Easter[nb 1] (Old English usually Ēastrun, -on, or -an; also Ēastru, -o; and Ēostre),[4] also called Pasch (derived, through Latin: Pascha and Greek Πάσχα Paskha, from Aramaic: פסחא‎, cognate to Hebrew: פֶּסַח‎ Pesaḥ),

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A2ques

from the Latin "pascha" meaning "Passover"

Where does the legend of Jeronimo come from is an important question to ask... but i have no idea what the answer is :D

b. 1605 Pris,
mother Michele S,
Father Unk Triko.
older 1/2 sister Maire F,
full sister margrite T.

Possible sources of further data:
Michele's death record [if Dutch they often record partners name]
Margrite's birth, engagement?, marriage?, death

any one want to guess who Marguerite Trico married?