Cecilia d'Atis, SM/PROG - mtDNA

Continued: My H10e result was to help clear up the two results from Cecilia d'Atis descendants: H10 or H1ak1.

Glenda Griffin's test came back as H10, while Pamela Perry came back as H1ak1. You noted there may be a paper trail issue.

Anyway, my H10e result does substantiate H10/H10e for Cecilia d'Atis, SM/PROG, so I think you may safely update your curators note on her profile to H10.

Pamela Debora Perry

cf https://www.geni.com/discussions/147154?msg=1184119

Glenda Griffin

Thank you so much for confirming that H10 and getting the added e information too! LOVE THIS!

Glenda's H10 line goes to Anna Pieterdg Jansz Caucheteux, Prevot,, b1 via Elisabeth Oberholzer

Valeta's H10e line goes to Anna Pieterdg Jansz Caucheteux, Prevot,, b1
via Marie Prevot, b3c2

Both go through Anna to Elisabeth du Preez, SM to Cecilia

Pamela's H1ak1's line goes to Elisabeth du Preez, SM via Anna's sister, Cecilia du Plessis

There are some problems with Elisabeth du Preez, SM producing two distinct maternal Haplogroups.

Firstly, H1 and H10 merely have H in common, so a common H ancestors many, many generations back.

The fact is, mitochondrial DNA is a slow-changing/ mutation. This is why it remains unchanged for many generations and can be effectively used to trace the maternal lineage, over hundreds and thousands of years. This is also why it is possible for two people to share the same haplogroup but share absolutely no recent ancestry (Glenda and I are good examples of this).

However, it does not seem likely that Elisabeth du Preez, SM (only 11 generations away) can produce two distinct haplogroups in so short a time.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322232/#bib32 has an extensive explanation on estimating the ages of haplogroups (ancestral nodes). Using the molecular clock they adopted, they calculated the mutation rate, which in turn provided the age estimates for all nodes.

H1ak1 path goes something like: H - H1 - H1a - H1ak - H1ak1 and the path for H10e goes something like: H - H10 - H10e

Based on the referenced paper, even if we assume that Elisabeth was an H, the rate of mutation just to get to H10e would need to be about 28 times the expected mutation rate.

Given that haplogroup H is believed to have originated around 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, while most researchers suggest H1 appeared about 10,000 and 15,000 years ago, H10, on the other hand, is believed to appear only about 8,000 years ago. So the mutation rate from H to H10 is at least 12,000 years, while from H to H1 is about 10,000 years ago. So even if we work with conservative numbers, 10,000 years ago, it is doubtful that the mutation rate would increase sufficiently to change from H to H1ak1 and H10e in the 348 years between Elizabeth and us.

Something is wrong in one of the maternal lines. It would be more likely to see Elisabeth du Prez being H10 and subsequent generations being H10e or H1a and subsequent generations being H1ak1 than from haplogroup H to H10e and H1ak1.

Some other interesting notes, according to Haplogroup.org:
Haplogroup: H10 (Age: 13,100 ± 5,800 Years Ago)

The highest frequencies of this line are present in Belgium (supports Elisabeth des Prez and Cecilia D-Atis' country of origin), where it makes up 6 percent of maternal lineages; in the Netherlands, it makes up approximately 3 percent of maternal lineages. Overall, this lineage is present at trace frequencies of 1 to 2 percent in Northwestern Europe and a frequency of less than 1 percent in Southern Europe.

H10 is aged between 8,594.5 ± 2,263.6
Parent Branch: H
Descendant branch(s): H10a H10b H10c H10d H10e H10f H10g H10h

Haplogroup: H1a (6,307.3 ± 1,820.0)
Origin: Europe

The highest frequencies of this line are present in 4 percent of the population of Finland, 6 percent of the population of Sweden, and 3 percent of the population of Denmark. However, it is present at trace frequencies of around 1 percent in Norway. Elsewhere in Europe, it is between 1 and 2 percent of maternal lineages. It is a striking 5 percent of the population of Austria and is 3 percent of the population of Greece.

H1ak is aged between 4,115.3 ± 2,546.5
Parent Branch: H1
Descendant branch(s): H1ak1 H1ak2

:-) Mutation is definitely not the answer :-) Was just trying to track whose lines were triangulating 'proof' on which profiles.

I think that you and Glenda converge on, and so confirm, Anna Pieterdg Jansz Caucheteux, Prevot,, b1 as H10.

The question of who is Pamela Perry's closest confirmed mtDNA ancestor is still open. It seems that her test result points to a paper trail problem in our tree. Also very useful to know, so we can use it to figure out what we have got wrong. It will be helpful to compare the tree ofanother geni user who is a match to her.

The two results definitely point to a paper trail problem. I will try to research the paper trail a little more to see what I can confirm, but it will need to wait until a little later this week.

Just an FYI on my family's side:

From my mother to grandmother is naturally obvious. From there to Barendina Johanna Vorster (Death Notice of her husband) → Anna Sophia Vorster (Voster.net) → Anna Sophia Enslin (Death Notice) → Maria Margaretha Coetzee (Death Notice) → Anna Sophia Oberholster/Pretorius (Daughter's Death Notice). If there is an issue on my side of the family, this is where it would be as I have no confirmation other than what people added to Geni using information from MyHeritage. In other words, the mother of Anna Sophia Oberholzer, as per the information added to Geni from MyHeritage, is Anna van Wyk.

As for the rest, they are pretty well sourced on Geni, and are: Anna van Wyk → Marie Prevot → Anna van Marseveen → Elisabeth des Prez.

I will look at the rest later this week.

Checked the First Fifty Years Project, and they have Anna Sophia Oberholster linked to Abraham Oberholster and Anna van Wijk (http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g11/p11007.htm#c11007.2), so I guess there is that link.

So, I would hazard to say there is a definite documentation trail for this line.

I did get some time to look today, to my husband's consternation ;), and started a discussion for Christina Catharina Beukes.

By the way Sharon, thanks for all your help on all the effort you have put in to get the lineages correct.

Pam Perry's tree now goes to Christina Catharina Beukes, so the H1ak1 conflict no longer exists.

cf Cornelia Smit, SM do Catarina van Emmenes, SM/PROG do Cornelia van den Bosch do Geertruij Helm, SM/PROG)

Awesome!