The Lees of Shrewsbury St. Chad's

See discussion https://www.geni.com/discussions/235584?msg=1494341
please thank you.

This thread has been up for more than two years, but you never saw it until today. Tsk, tsk, tsk!

The first thing a genealogist, historian or a family researcher learns is that never make assumptions - and most of your opions are based on assumptions - and you know what they say about assume-ing.

The second lesson you might want to learn is what the true definition of a genius is - one who can admit they actually know nothing at all.

Try being kind and humble for a change. If you can.

Then ... get to actually sources, data, documentation, archive - no wikipedia or website.

"opinions' that are assumptive ... :)

What I posted re the Richard Lees of Shrewsbury St. Chad's came from MY research in the Shrewsbury St. Chad's parish registers, verbatim. (Online, yes, transcript yes, but you can check it for yourself against your image.)

Richard Lee, Sharman was *not* Richard Lee, Gent. (It was never very logical that he could be, no matter how fantastical a story you want to spin about him. Shrewsbury is some 25 miles northwestish of Alveley, and there was absolutely no reason to go that far when there was a perfectly serviceable church *at* Alveley, about *two* miles from Coton Hall - not to mention the chapel *at* Coton Hall.)

It is particularly unfortunate that the Alveley parish records are so spotty and that no records at all have survived from the Coton chapel.

By the way, you should *never* claim a baptismal/christening date as a birth date. It might be the same day, but more often it was not. (Classic example: William Shakespeare, christening date 26 April 1564; birth date estimated as 23 April 1564.)

Oh - link. https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/StChadShrewsburyPart1.html

Continued and added to this discussion:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/235584?msg=1494398

Any argument against the baptismal record I am presenting of 15 May 1617 St. Chad's, Shrewsbury being Col Richard Lee's baptismal record the researcher in doubt should be seeking a legitimate legal source and fact, not opinion why this would not be his baptismal record. It IS the ONLY baptismal record in the UK Parish archives that fits within a 25 year span of Col Richard Lee's possible birth and within a 20 mile search range within and around the Shropshire area for the time period search of 1599-1622. Anyone can check this fact for yourself through a UK Parish record search system. Records are attached to this webpage so that anyone can verify as anyone can also obtain IF they know how to search UK Parish records. At least they are visible today and I have attach these records and links to this publishing also.

And the biggest elephant in the room is:

t is important to note that Ricardus Lee (Richard Lee of Coton) changed his residence and left Aveley/Coton after his marriage to wife Elizabeth Bendy to reside at Stratford Langethorne, Essex - which is same location of Col Richard Lee of Virginia's sworn testament of identification in his Last Will and Testament.

This will was probated in London, the next year: 1664-5 Richardus Lee. January. Decimo die p robatum fuit Testamentum Richardi Lee nup de Stratford Langton in Com Essexine sed apud Virgi nia in ptibus transmarinus ar defunct hents, &c. Jurament Thomae Griffith et Johis Lockey duo r Execut, & c, guih. & c., de bene & c. Jurat. Reservata ptate Similem Comnem faciend Johi e t Richo Lee alt Execut & c."

Johis P C C Probate Act Book fo 3.

Evidential Proof of Parental/Child Connection:

Regarding Will of Richardus Lee (Richard Lee of Coton) Proven:

STRATFORD HALL: THE GREAT HOUSE OF THE LEES, Pg. 524:

JOHN LEE of Coton Hall (aged circa 59 in 1588/9) mar. Joyce, only dau. of John Romney of
Lulsley, co. Worcester, bur. Aiveley, 4 Dec. 1609

Thomas William Edward Gilbert RICHARD

Mentioned in Chancery suit 1610 — j Elizabeth Bendy

as having life interest in farm at | married at Aiveley apd.
Aiveley apd. Bapt. at Aiveley 21 Oct. 1599.

6 Oct. 1563. Ment <! in Wills of
his father 1605 and brother Gil-
bert 1621. (Left Aiveley to live
at Stratford Langthorne, Essex. )

Note: .John Lee of Cotton or Coton Hall and Joyce Romney his wife had eight sons of whom five are men-
tioned in this transcription. Of Gilbert Lee the record states he was of Tolleshunt, Darcv, Co. Essex;

that his (Richardus) will was dated April 12. 1621. the year of his marriage to Elizabeth ; that lie

was a leather merchant trading with Virginia, and that his ship fought the Spanish Armada.

It should be apparent and accepted that in Col Richard Lee's sworn statement stating his identity as from Stratford Langethorne, Essex and that in Richard Lee of Coton's place of residence at the time of his death was also Stratford Langethorne, Essex that Col Richard Lee IS THE SON OF Richard Lee of Coton. With two LEGAL probated documented PROVEN Will's that DO ESTABLISH a LEGAL PARENTAL Father to Son RELATIONSHIP through the sworn statement of TITLE IDENTITY the acceptance of Richardus Lee of Coton and Stratford Langethorne Essex as the FATHER of Richard Lee of Virginia and Stratford Langthorne, Essex should be unquestionable. I rest my case on the matter.

And IF there was a bill of sale or land record of Col Richard Lee purchasing prior to his death the estate - why would he do so when it is documented and historically published that "He returned to his childhood home" prior to his death.

Baptismal transcript:
Source(s): Baptismal Record(s):

Note: listing Richard (Richardus) as father and present:

Richardus Lee; Present at baptism of Richard Lee:; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England; (source image attached)

Richard (Richardus) Lee listed as present (Father) at baptism of Col. Richard Lee; County Shropshire Register type Composite Register date range 1616-1638 Archive reference P253/A/1/1 Page 2 Record set Shropshire Baptisms Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers) Subcategory Parish Baptisms Collections from United Kingdom, England Note:source image attached - Primary Source:; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Birth year -; Baptism year 1617; Baptism date 15 May 1617; Denomination Anglican; Place Shrewsbury, St Chad's; Father's first name(s) Richard; Mother's first name(s) -; Mother's last name -; Residence -; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England

NO "Sharman" ... NADA.

And ... this Will is PROVEN

Source: Probate of Will of Richardus Lee:

UK, Probate Records 1269-1975.Name Lee, Richard; Death 1621; Vital Shropshire, England; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Year 1621; Probate year 1621; Inventory year 1620; Parish Shrewsbury; County Shropshire; Country England; Series description Registered wills and original wills, administrations and inventories, 1494-1860, and, act books, 1532-1638 for Diocese of Lichfield Episcopal Consistory Court; Piece description Original wills, administrations, inventories; Piece surname range L; Piece year range 1621-1623; Record set Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield And Coventry Wills And Probate 1521-1860; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Wills & probate; Collections from England, United Kingdom

Read that - it mentions his son Richard Lee as well ... hum.

Not to mention these are the more than 'one' reference that Richard Lee was son of Richardus (Richard Lee) and Elizabeth Bendy -

Additional historical documentation that confirms Col Richard Lee descent from Richardus Lee and Lee's of Shropshire - Documentation for Richard Lee linage from Shropshire, Coton Hall Lees Compiled by Jacqueli Finley:

*Richard Lee Baptism record:
The Parish Registers of Broseley, Shropshire, 1570-[1750], Volume 1 By Broseley (England), Pg. 16. Note: Father Ricardus Lee present. (Record microfilm attached below).

*As Will of his father, Richardus Lee, wife Elizabeth Bendy, also does confirm lineage of Richard Lee b.1617/18 married Anne Constable: The New England Historical and Genealogical Register, Volume 46, Pg. 71. (Record microfilm attached below).

*Letter from Lancelot Lee, of Coton, to Thomas Lee, of Stratford JOURNAL ARTICLE: A New Clue to the Lee Ancestry: The Virginia Magazine of History and Biography Vol. 6, No. 3 (Jan., 1899), pp. 255-260 Published by: Virginia Historical Society Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4242160 Page Count:6 Title: A New Clue to the Lee Ancestry Created Date: 20160808195236Z

*Family Trees By François Weil Harvard University Press, Apr 30, 2013 - History - 320 pages http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674045835&amp;amp;c......

*Annual Report, Volume 2 By American Historical Association U.S. Government Printing Office, 1907 - Historiography Congressional Serial Set U.S. Government Printing Office, 1907 - United States Pg.929 https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.156996/page/n7

*Edmund Jennings Lee, Lee of Virginia, 1642-1892: Biographical and Genealogical Sketches of the Descendants of Colonel Richard Lee, Pg. 38 Heritage Books, Jun 16, 2008 - Reference - 664 pages : https://archive.org/details/leeofvirginia16400inleee/page/n5

*Vols. 37-52 (1883-98) include section: Genealogical gleanings in England, by H. F. Waters. https://archive.org/details/newenglandhistor1877wate/page/n5

* Miscellanea Genealogica Et Heraldica Hamilton, Adams, and Company, 1894 – Genealogy, Pg. 109 https://archive.org/details/miscellaneagenea03lond/page/n7

*Full text of "Genealogical history of the Lee family of Virginia and Maryland from A.D. 1300 to A.D. 1866, LEE FAMILY VIRGINIA AND MARYLAND FROM A.D. 1300 TO A.D. 1 866 WITH NOTES AND ILLUSTRATIONS EDITED BY EDWARD C. MEAD URL:https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalhist00mead/genealogicalhist0...

*Society of the Lees of Virginia Collection, 1771-2000. 82 boxes, 264 A--264 CCCC (38 linear ft.) Eleanor Lee Templeman (1906-1990), a Northern Virginia author, genealogist, and historian, assembled much of this collection. Her writings and correspondence capture the activities and interests of the Society, as well as the genealogy of the Lees. Scope and Content Note: This collection documents the family history of Lees in Virginia, especially to the Lees related to Richard Lee the Emigrant. (There are extensive series of files by names of individuals with the surname of Lee, by surnames of other families which intermarried with the Lees, and by names of properties associated with these families. Other major series cover the English ancestry of the Lees, antique objects associated with the Lees, and the records of the Society of the Lees of Virginia. There are files on dozens of related families, but the Goldsborough and Boothe families are particularly well represented. The photograph collection provides portraits of many of the Lees as well as pictures of Lee homes and other related subjects. Other formats include: correspondence, letters, maps, genealogical charts, books, periodicals, newspaper and magazine clippings, business records, index cards, completed membership applications, brochures, booklets, prints, reports, court records, property records,histories)

URL:https://alexlibraryva.org/custom/web/lhsc/onlinecollectionguides/ar...

* "Stratford Hall: The Great House of Lees" By ETHEL ARMES WITH AN INTRODUCTION BY FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT https://archive.org/stream/stratfordhallthe00rich/stratfordhallthe0...

* Emma Lee Bettis Manuscript: "Lee Family of Shropshire, England 1100 AD to 1961 in America - called the Lee Family of Virginia" compiled by Emma Lee Bettis

https://leesofvirginia.org/Col_Richard_Lee.html

Anyone can view the microfilm's as well as the UK records and sources:
https://leesofvirginia.org/Col_Richard_Lee.html

And Maven that is how you show proof, not speculative assuptive opinions.

I really do not know why you are so obseesed with the Lee family when you are not related. I think you just enjoy harrassing people or lines you do not like IMO. And from experience.

I am reposting for public view so there is no confusion:

The only PROBMATIC issue with Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy being the true parents of Col Richard Lee Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee is that admission that this is the true lineage of Col Richard Lee would nullify all the Y-DNA Project and Y-DNA studies that have disclaimed many Lee of Virginia descendants -WRONGFULLY - and everyone should also note that prior to Thorndales bogus of attaching John Leyes and Jane Hancock with fake sources - it was acceptable by the Lee Society and Edmund Jennings Lee - see specifically in his book 'Lee of Virginia' that indeed Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy were his parents and he WAS a decendant of the Lees of Shropshire.

There are direct descendant males of the UK Lees that more than match the USA Lee decendants today - as well as the other ancestrial and descending surnames associated with our LOV lines.

And GEDMatch DNA Kits are accessible for all the public to view and verify. BTW - unlike the Lee DNA Projects that have wrongfully detached Lee lines.

We have nothing to hide unlike them.

Tagging
Richard Lee of Coton Hall
Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee
Elizabeth Lee

"Oh - link. https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/StChadShrewsburyPart1.html&quot;

No transcript of what you calim but as far as the 'location' arguement -

6 Oct. 1563. Ment <! in Wills of
his father 1605 and brother Gil-
bert 1621. (Left Aiveley to live
at Stratford Langthorne, Essex. )

Note: .John Lee of Cotton or Coton Hall and Joyce Romney his wife had eight sons of whom five are men-
tioned in this transcription. Of Gilbert Lee the record states he was of Tolleshunt, Darcv, Co. Essex;

that his (Richardus) will was dated April 12. 1621. the year of his marriage to Elizabeth ; that lie
was a leather merchant trading with Virginia, and that his ship fought the Spanish Armada.

It should be apparent and accepted that in Col Richard Lee's sworn statement stating his identity as from Stratford Langethorne, Essex and that in Richard Lee of Coton's place of residence at the time of his death was also Stratford Langethorne, Essex.

So far you have not prove your argument or the invalidity of the sources that I have documented.

ANd I apologize for my typos or clumsiness in my posts - my copy and paste - as I am disabled and do my best to convey with the tools I have.

"t is important to note that Ricardus Lee (Richard Lee of Coton) changed his residence and left Aveley/Coton after his marriage to wife Elizabeth Bendy to reside at Stratford Langethorne, Essex"

You keep saying that, BUT YOU HAVE NEVER PROVIDED ANY PROOF.

Col. Richard Lee's will IS NOT PROOF, because it does not show continuance of occupancy, does not show that Richard Lee gf Coton Hall ever lived there, does nothing to disprove the well-founded tradition that Col. Richard Lee *bought it for himself*.

1617] St. Chad's. 3

1617, May 15. Richard, s. of Richard Lee, sharman ... c.
https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/StChadShrewsburyPart1.html

There it is in black and white - "sharman".

Lots of "sharman"s in the parish register, there must have been a thriving cloth trade in Shrewsbury.

Oh brother ... again? *sigh*

first -
""t is important to note that Ricardus Lee (Richard Lee of Coton) changed his residence and left Aveley/Coton after his marriage to wife Elizabeth Bendy to reside at Stratford Langethorne, Essex"

You keep saying that, BUT YOU HAVE NEVER PROVIDED ANY PROOF.

Col. Richard Lee's will IS NOT PROOF, because it does not show continuance of occupancy, does not show that Richard Lee gf Coton Hall ever lived there, does nothing to disprove the well-founded tradition that Col. Richard Lee *bought it for himself*."

The following transcript of Richard Lee's Last Will and Testament is taken from Edmund Jennings Lee's Lee of Virginia, 1642–1892: Biographical and Genealogical Sketches of the Descendants of Colonel Richard Lee (Philadelphia, 1895) pp. 61–64. (Please Note: I have HIGHLIGHTED in his Will and Last Testament Col Richard Lee's sworn statement of his identity):

Richard Lee, the Immigrant (c.1613–1664)

IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. I, Colonel Richard Lee of Virginia, and lately of Stafford Langton in the County of Essex, Esquire, being bound upon a voyage to Virginia aforesaid, and not knowing how it may please God to dispose of me in so long a voyage, utterly renouncing, disclaiming, disannulling, and revoking all former wills, either script, nuncupative or parol, and schedules or codicils of wills whatsoever, do make, ordain and declare this my last Will and Testament in manner and form following ... etc.

AND

"disprove the well-founded tradition that Col. Richard Lee *bought it for himself*."

What tradition? Where is THAT proof - just because you are saying it does not make that true .. explain why would he buy the same exact place as Ricardus Lee lived and died??????
Prove up your stance because it sounds a bit unhinged.

AND ...

"1617] St. Chad's. 3

1617, May 15. Richard, s. of Richard Lee, sharman ... c.
https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/StChadShrewsburyPart1.html

There it is in black and white - "sharman".

Lots of "sharman"s in the parish register, there must have been a thriving cloth trade in Shrewsbury."

Regarding your link:
Copyright notice:
All pages at http://www.melocki.org.uk
are Copyright Mel Lockie 2011.
All rights reserved.
For a detailed copyright policy see: Conditions of Use.

This is NOT Parish Record Archives but a written private website owned and operated by a Mel Locke.

And to make it easier for you: https://www.geni.com/discussions/235584?msg=1494440

Your comment"
"I can copypaste too:

1617] St. Chad's. 3
1617, May 15. Richard, s. of Richard Lee, sharman ... c.
https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/StChadShrewsburyPart1.html
There it is in black and white - "sharman". (You said it wasn't there, but it *is*.)
Lots of "sharman"s in the parish register, there must have been a thriving cloth trade in Shrewsbury.

NOTE:
Copyright notice:
All pages at http://www.melocki.org.uk
are Copyright Mel Lockie 2011.
All rights reserved.
For a detailed copyright policy see: Conditions of Use.

This is a privately written website - not actual UK Parish records - just someones written records - not proof.

Try search actual Parish Records: I can copypaste too:

1617] St. Chad's. 3

1617, May 15. Richard, s. of Richard Lee, sharman ... c.
https://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/StChadShrewsburyPart1.html

There it is in black and white - "sharman". (You said it wasn't there, but it *is*.)

Lots of "sharman"s in the parish register, there must have been a thriving cloth trade in Shrewsbury.

And ...

to make it even clearer:

"I can copypaste too:"

I find it highly offensive that you make light of my disabilities.

Many may consider that inappropriate.

So regarding you "Sharman" assertion - to be direct - I repeat:

Baptismal transcript:
Source(s): Baptismal Record(s):

Note: listing Richard (Richardus) as father and present:

Richardus Lee; Present at baptism of Richard Lee:; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England; (source image attached)

Richard (Richardus) Lee listed as present (Father) at baptism of Col. Richard Lee; County Shropshire Register type Composite Register date range 1616-1638 Archive reference P253/A/1/1 Page 2 Record set Shropshire Baptisms Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers) Subcategory Parish Baptisms Collections from United Kingdom, England Note:source image attached - Primary Source:; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Birth year -; Baptism year 1617; Baptism date 15 May 1617; Denomination Anglican; Place Shrewsbury, St Chad's; Father's first name(s) Richard; Mother's first name(s) -; Mother's last name -; Residence -; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England

NO "Sharman" ... NADA.

THAT is the exact Parish Record Transcript. Verbatim. Not someones website collection of rewritten stuff.

Maven -

"Col. Richard Lee's will IS NOT PROOF, because it does not show continuance of occupancy, does not show that Richard Lee gf Coton Hall ever lived there, does nothing to disprove the well-founded tradition that Col. Richard Lee *bought it for himself*."

Do you even realize how totally unhinged that sounds? I am sorry but you are grasping for a life perserver. Fake it til you make it does not stand up to primary documentation, historical publications, legal citations and verified sources.

I guess you are so used to bullying your way through arguments with all your puffed up assertions and opinions.

Nothing you have said or posting has any merit. Sorry. I feel like you just argue for the sake of arguing.

I am above that and I hope that you would be too.

Oh I almost forgot ...

Evidential Proof of Parental/Child Connection:

Regarding Will of Richardus Lee (Richard Lee of Coton) Proven:

STRATFORD HALL: THE GREAT HOUSE OF THE LEES, Pg. 524: https://archive.org/stream/stratfordhallthe00rich/stratfordhallthe0...

JOHN LEE of Coton Hall (aged circa 59 in 1588/9) mar. Joyce, only dau. of John Romney of
Lulsley, co. Worcester, bur. Aiveley, 4 Dec. 1609

Thomas William Edward Gilbert RICHARD

Mentioned in Chancery suit 1610 — j Elizabeth Bendy

as having life interest in farm at | married at Aiveley apd.
Aiveley apd. Bapt. at Aiveley 21 Oct. 1599.

6 Oct. 1563. Ment <! in Wills of
his father 1605 and brother Gil-
bert 1621. (Left Aiveley to live
at Stratford Langthorne, Essex. )

Kind of matches

Last Will and Last Testament of Col Richard Lee, the Immigrant:

Note: The following transcript of Richard Lee's Last Will and Testament is taken from Edmund Jennings Lee's Lee of Virginia, 1642–1892: Biographical and Genealogical Sketches of the Descendants of Colonel Richard Lee (Philadelphia, 1895) pp. 61–64. (Please Note: I have HIGHLIGHTED in his Will and Last Testament Col Richard Lee's sworn statement of his identity):

Richard Lee, the Immigrant (c.1613–1664)

IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. I, Colonel Richard Lee of Virginia, and lately of Stafford Langton in the County of Essex,

The ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

I am reposting for public view so there is no confusion:

The only PROBMATIC issue with Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy being the true parents of Col Richard Lee Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee is that admission that this is the true lineage of Col Richard Lee would nullify all the Y-DNA Project and Y-DNA studies that have disclaimed many Lee of Virginia descendants -WRONGFULLY - and everyone should also note that prior to Thorndales bogus of attaching John Leyes and Jane Hancock with fake sources - it was acceptable by the Lee Society and Edmund Jennings Lee - see specifically in his book 'Lee of Virginia' that indeed Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy were his parents and he WAS a decendant of the Lees of Shropshire.

There are direct descendant males of the UK Lees that more than match the USA Lee decendants today - as well as the other ancestrial and descending surnames associated with our LOV lines.

And GEDMatch DNA Kits are accessible for all the public to view and verify. BTW - unlike the Lee DNA Projects that have wrongfully detached Lee lines.

We have nothing to hide unlike them.

And we DO NOT LIE about being LEE DESCENDANTS from Col Richard Lee.

"see specifically in his book 'Lee of Virginia' that indeed Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy were his parents and he WAS a descendant of the Lees of Shropshire."

No, what he said, EXACTLY, was "Whether Colonel Richard Lee's immediate parentage can be determined it is as yet impossible to say." (Lee of Virginia, p. 43.)
(Then he goes off on tangents about the Burnels and the Corbets, as being other prominent and connected Shropshire families.)

Colonel Richard Lee's ancestry has *absolutely nothing* to do with the awkward fact that (as of last count) five documented male lines of descent *from him* have been tested, they all match very closely, and there are a lot of other Lee lines - some of which can be traced back *farther* than his - that don't match.

Colonial Virginia being the small place that it was, and endogamy being what usually happens in places with small gene pools, it would be surprising if there were *no* traces of relationship. But - as cannot be emphasized enough - autosomal matches may come from *any* ancestor, or more than one, and can (and often does) follow lines of mixed descent.

Also, beware of the Emma Siggins White Fallacy, that is, assuming that *all* families with the same surname *must* be related. No they don't have to be, and Emma Siggins White made an unholy mess and caused eternal headaches for White family researchers by her wanton grabbing and mashing of families that were *not* actually related.

I found a Lee who *did* live in Stratford Langton (which used to be a country suburb of London but has since been consumed by it) - but he wasn't Richard Lee of Coton. He was Sir *Robert* Lee of Holcott (Bucks) - the very man Edmund Jennings Lee spilled so much ink proving could *not* be the father of Col. Richard Lee.

Sir Robert's epitaph, from the church at Hardwick, Bucks:

"Here lyeth interr'd the body of Sir Robert Lee knight, sonne and heire of Benedict Lee of Huccott in the county of Bucks esq who was second brother of Sir Robert Lee of Birdsthorn. He was born at Helstrap in the parish of Drayton Beauchamp AD 1545 June 15th and married Dame Luce Piggott daughter of Thomas Pygot of Beachampton esq in ye county of Bucks esq by whom he had issue Vlll sons viz Sir Henry Lee knight and baronet, Edward, Bennett, Thomas, George, Robert, Richard and Anthonie ; and vl daughters Frances, Elizabeth, Mary, Margaret, Joyce and Alice. When he lived 55 years he departed this life in the in the faith of Jesus Christ at Stratford Langton in ye county of Essex and was buried at Hardwicke AD 1616 August 20th aged 73"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52219527@N00/3628462346/
(The page goes on to include a bogus reference to Col. Richard Lee as Sir Robert's seventh son - a belief which evidently was popular in earlier times.)

Whether Sir Robert was any relation to the Shropshire Lees probably cannot now be proved - the line daughtered out.

Okay Erica Howton I understand - it was probably the point of Maven's provocation towards me and my research after all.

I do have the right to defend myself, I spoke the truth and tried to tolerate the verbal attacks the best I could. I do think it shameful that Maven gets away with such bad behavior to other users. As you are aware - and I do not seek her out - she purposefully seeks me out to provoke - the history is there.

Thank you for the heads up and take care.
J

“Colonel Richard Lee's ancestry has *absolutely nothing* to do with the awkward fact that (as of last count) five documented male lines of descent *from him* have been tested, they all match very closely, and there are a lot of other Lee lines - some of which can be traced back *farther* than his - that don't match.” - MAVEN

Absolutely absurd statement as I will explain again the science of Y-DNA –
Generation 1 male Y-DNA Haplogroup can only match generation 2, 3, 4 generational ascending ancestors ONLY if Y-DNA samples of male ascending ancestors have given Y-DNA sample ...

Since Y-DNA sample for Gen RE Lee had been obtained so with the paper trail documented to 5 generation ancestors pertaining to subsequent to the documented descending ancestors that have no sample of Y-DNA but Y-DNA Haplogroup is consistent to that same Generation 1 male Y-DNA sample can prove a genetic relationship …

But again – if there are NO Y-DNA SAMPLES for ancestors of Generations 5 Gen RE Lee ancestor males generation 6, 7, 8 to Col Richard Lee and beyond, there can be NO Y-DNA Haplogroup assigned to verify or match anyone as this is not how Y-DNA works … it cannot absolutely fly through time and attach itself to an ancestor UNLESS THERE IS A Y-DNA SAMPLE FROM THAT GENERATION ANCESTOR.

It is a ridiculous and outright mis-leading statement to indicate otherwise and what many are trying to lead the public to believe that this can be so.
It is scientifically and GENETICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

SO basically a generation male Y-DNA cannot even be matched to a father - generation 2 - unless there is Y-DNA from ascending generation 3 or (beyond) if there is Y-DNA sample from an ascending ancestor that matches to generation 1 - documented or not.

“Colonial Virginia being the small place that it was, and endogamy being what usually happens in places with small gene pools, it would be surprising if there were *no* traces of relationship. But - as cannot be emphasized enough - autosomal matches may come from *any* ancestor, or more than one, and can (and often does) follow lines of mixed descent.” - MAVEN
This state is disturbing to me and based solely on opinion. I find it inappropriate, opinionated and not based on science or fact.

If what said is true and ancestry was based on such an immoral existence than the theory would mean that would apply to all DNA – Autosomal, MT, and Y-DNA since what is suggested that no ancestry could be established because of what they believe and what may not be true at all – very judgmental and speculative.

I find that point of view of the world and our ancestors very narrow minded and sad.

Genealogy is an exact science.
DNA is an exact science.

When assumptive opinion, speculation, personal judgements, not based on facts but opinion causes all the mass-ups and confusion and dilute, divert from truth.

Just because someone has an opinion on EVERYTHING, does not mean that person is an expert on EVERYTHING.

And just because a person has an opinion on anything does not make them an expert either.

I would like to know Maven where you may have an area of expertise, credentials or recognition in genealogy or DNA - other than your opinions?

Please enlighten me as then maybe I can validate some of your statements as for now you have said much that does not match factual evidence, regardless of how well you may articulate veiled expertise.

“Also, beware of the Emma Siggins White Fallacy, that is, assuming that *all* families with the same surname *must* be related. No they don't have to be, and Emma Siggins White made an unholy mess and caused eternal headaches for White family researchers by her wanton grabbing and mashing of families that were *not* actually related.” – MAVEN
You have made this statement so much on Geni as your ‘go to’ but makes my point entirely about opinion and assumptive based genealogy –
When you assume …

It is kind of a given.

And there may be all different kinds of spellings of surnames through generations as it was common in the past for surnames to be mis-spelled or changed phonically –
As in my Mauk surname – there are different variants such as Mock, Mauck, etc. given to proven ancestors.

And it was not so long ago that we Lee descendants were being told to believe that Col Richard Lee was the son of John “Leyes” … but at the same time William Lee cannot be William Lea???? It is assumptive to think that there cannot be typos or phonic spelling etc., on documentation sometimes. That is where science comes in to help clear matters up.

As there are variants of the Lee surname spelling Lee, Lea, Leigh, etc., and to assume that they are or not related again is opinion based and assumptive – just like the “White’ argument – it goes BOTH ways.

Never assume in genealogy.
Never assume in DNA.
They both require and are exact sciences.

“Colonial Virginia being the small place that it was, and endogamy being what usually happens in places with small gene pools, it would be surprising if there were *no* traces of relationship. But - as cannot be emphasized enough - autosomal matches may come from *any* ancestor, or more than one, and can (and often does) follow lines of mixed descent.” - MAVEN
That is such a misleading and false statement.

I have found Autosomal DNA quite accurate in confirming genetic relationship multi-generations up to generation 8 even without ascending DNA samples for upper generations.
I have help many find parental relationships and family members that they never knew, and without documentation- both maternal and paternal sides – using just generation 1 Autosomal DNA.

Anyone who has used AU DNA to confirm ancestral relationships - multi-generational – will agree I am sure – and with great accuracy.

Unlike Y-DNA which is full of inaccuracies because opinion, interpretation and mis-leading statements in Y-DNA studies have had confusing results.

Autosomal DNA in genealogy has been quite accurate and exact – to say otherwise is a lie.
Any of those who have found biological parents and family can vouch this fact.