Flaald fitz Flaald, Seneschal de Dol-de-Bretagne - Several Issues

This looks like part of a BS tree cobbled up to keep consistency with later Stewart legends. Everybody above Flaald fitz Flaald is almost certainly Fictional, and so is his "wife".

We're not even sure that he's a "fitz Flaald" - there is no documented Flaald in the previous generation, and he may be the so of Hato, man at arms to "Junkeneus archiepiscopus".

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/brittcope.htm#_Toc520012643

He's his own grandpa, as the "About" clearly and explicitly (in most cases) refers to a son of the Alain fitzFlaald who was Sheriff of Shropshire - the *son* of this man.

The MedLands account is based on a completely different reconstruction of the family, which is incompatible with the standard version.

Private User and Brian Johnson so what should we or are going to do in this situation?

For the curators. They're all MPs already.

Tittensor is a hamlet in Staffordshire.

Brian: WHOSE "standard version"? I was under the impression that J. Horace Round had *exploded* the "standard version" many long years ago (and done it with snarky flair, too). The one possible flaw in *his* reconstruction is his assumption (without primary evidence) that there were two Alan fitz Flaalds instead of one hardy character with a long career. There is disagreement about that.

In any case, "Tittensor MAC Kenneth" is an absolute impossibility. Women were NEVER named after places in the early Middle Ages - that was a much later development (Tudor or post-Tudor). And they DID NOT use the MASCULINE "Mac" until patronymics started stabilizing into passed-down family names (which they hadn't yet).

Nor is this any name which would have been given to a Breton girl child. You can skim down any of the MedLands pages for Brittany and see what sort of names *were* popular there.

And "Unnamed Faughter of Ava MacAlpin" smells like trying to have it both ways - keeping the authenticated Breton descent while wedging in an undocumented daughter of the House of Dunkeld. wife of Flaald fitz Flaald

Given all the Inconsistencies (which is where this discussion started) concerning the wife of "the first" Alan Fitz Flaald, I'm pretty sure she's completely Fictional.

There was Flaald son of Alan, Flaald brother of Alan, and Alan son of Flaald.

The Round version puts one Flaald in the middle, with a father Alan, a brother Alan, and a son Alan.

The Medlands version has one Alan in the middle, with a father Flaald, a brother Flaald, and a son Flaald.

So the Alans are rolled onto one, but Flaald is split into 3.

Tagging Sharon Doubell
Tagging Private User
Tagging Erica Howton

Round made the *very rash* assumption that the Alan fitz Flaald who went on the First Crusade *did not come back*. There are other cases of Crusaders who handed over temporary control of their properties to close relatives, and then resumed them when they returned.

We know Alan had a father named Flaald because of his patronymic.
We know there was a brother Flaad or Flald because of a charter (which also names a third brother, Rhiwallon, as becoming a monk).
We know there was a Flaald fitz Alan Dapifer because he witnessed a charter c. 1101-1102. He's not the same person as Alan's brother (wrong patronymic), and he's active *quite* late to be Alan's father - so "son by undocumented first wife" makes the most chronological sense.

The trouble with doubling up Alan fitz Flaald is that you then have to double up *both* his brothers and have *both* Rhiwallons becoming monks, which - is stretching coincidence a little far, isn't it?

Geni mostly follows the Round version, à la Wikipedia, so if you want to go with the MedLands version, there's a lot of rearranging and rewriting to do

Please fix and thanks Keri Denise Jackson, ♊ Twin "A" for finding it. I have been following it as an ancestor. Not sure. Maybe. Who can tell from this?

I can mess with this probably tomorrow, if y'all are willing to wait. If another wants to take it on, I will not be having hurt feelings.

Your welcome Susanne Floyd.

Thank you Private User , Private User and Brian Johnson .

"Tomorrow" looks like being a long time away.

Indeed. Got swamped.

Clarification -- besides outside issues, different pieces of my work on Geni take different pieces of my brain, and the piece I need for one sort of work might not be available.

I am *very* certain that "Tittensor Mac Kenneth" did NOT come from anything written by J. Horace Round.

From what I gather, "she" derives from one or several of a bunch of garbage trees cluttering up the Web with disinformation.

The one at Genealogie Onlinehttps://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/stamboom-oversluizen/I20609.php multiplies the known daughters of Malcolm II into a horde, adds their husbands as "sons" and makes other sorts of genealogic mayhem. If the probably-mythical "Tittensor" were *his* daughter, she would have been T. *nic* (not Mac) Mael Coluim (not Cinead).

Disconnected wife of Flaald fitz Flaald as child of Ava MacAlpin & locked relationships.

Here is Rounds construction of the family.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000040086450313

MACKENNETH, Tittensor de Dinon (1020-1054) 27th great grand aunt

Tittensor du Do (1024-) Wife of 28th Great-Grandfather

http://linton-research-fund-inc.com/How_are_you_Related_to_Evelyn_V...

https://gw.geneanet.org/pattensearch?lang=en&p=tittensor&n=...

Parents
Malcolm II (King of Scotland) Mael Colium Mac Cinaeda Scotland Alba Ireland Hebridies, Kings of Scots- House of Alpin 954-1034
Queen Aelgifu Aefgifu Of Scotland x 962-983

In the alphabetica! list, she's next after MacKenneth Robert I Magnificent Normandy 1000-1035

Hamon de Dinan, vicomte de Dinan Gender: Male Birth: 970 Death: 1030 (59-61)

https://www.geni.com/discussions/158948?msg=1099883 “ Surely not as "wife" of Alain "Dapifer" fitz Flaald, Seneschal of Dol born 50 years later? Also, women are not Viscounts?”

—-
Is MACKENNETH, Tittensor de Dinon (1020-1054) relate?

Here I am -- sorry.

My take on all of this:

What's going on is that the evidence is problematic, and the inherited stories are problematic. So we end up deciding on what version makes most sense.

By the way, just to get if off my chest -- there is no Tittensor MacKenneth. Tittensor is not a French name, it is not a Scottish name, it is an English name, and it shows up later. It makes no sense. So the fact that her dates don't work sorta doesn't matter cause she wasn't there.

Ok. On to other people, and whether or not they existed and what their connections are:

Medlands is following Paul A. Fox, who is currently the editor of "The Coat of Arms," which is the Journal of the Heraldry Society, UK. He was a doctor first, but has been working in heraldry and genealogy for many years, and has a bunch of high level recognitions. Fair enough.

The question, of course, is whether his work in this instance is trustworthy. The reason that Medlands chooses him over Round is that the primary evidence seems to fit Fox's construction better.

J.H. Round's work, "The Origin of the Stewarts," has been highly influential, and is available online. And though Round's work is dated, he was honorary historian to the Crown. So he is one of the Big Guns.

I myself would go with Medlands on this one, based on this: "Round, in his early 20th century study on the origins of the Stewarts, splits "Alan son of Flaald" into two persons, the second being the supposed nephew of the first[818]. However, Round cites no primary source which confirms that this is correct, and it is more reasonable to suppose, as proposed by Fox, that all the primary source records for this name in the latter part of the 11th and the early 12th centuries refer to the same person[819]."

It's Occam's Razor.

As I said, I think Round jumped to the conclusion that Alan fitz Flaald the Crusader went off on the First Crusade and got himself killed. Maybe so, maybe no. If he was as hardy a character as William the Marshal, or anywhere near that tough, he could be the same Alan fitz Flaald who married Aveline de Hesdin (she would be his second wife), became Sheriff of Shropshire, and founded the Fitzalan and Stewart lines.

This actually makes figuring out who is related to whom a little bit easier.

I so appreciate all you guys. Thank you so much. :)