Richard de Bray - Confusion in Bray lines

Apologies for error in the above
Margaret Beauchamp's daughter was Margaret BEAUFORT not Beaumont as shown.
Is there a way of editing my previous message to correct this?

No, we can’t edit messages, but we can “abouts.”

Sir Richard Bray, of Eaton Bray & Lady Margaret Bray She needs to be disconnected from the William Sandes, of Furness Fells & daughter Betham showing as parents.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sandes-1 References Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 549.

Sir Walter Sandys, MP & Margaret Cheyney

Some Notes for a History of the "Sandys" Family ... By Comely Vivian. Page 60. https://books.google.com/books?id=f09tuVkKNAsC&lpg=PR11&ots...

https://gw.geneanet.org/lard?lang=en&pz=jean+charles&nz=ter...

Individual Note
The family of Sandys has been traced back to the reign of king Richard the second. The unconfirmed ancestry from 1230 - 1424 is below: Simon de Sandis, b. abt. 1230, Burgh-on-Sands, near Carlisle, Eng. He and his brother reclaimed land from the sea and called themselves "De Sandis De Sabulonibus" and "De Sandis De Sablums," archaic French for grit or sand. Henry del Sandes, b. abt. 1250, killed Richard Freeman, 1272, imprisoned, released 1274. In 1320, Beatrice de Sandes and her husband, Ruald de Calva, established the priory of Aldbury in the parish of Send. In the 8th Century, Send was known as Sandes. Richard del Sandes, b. abt. 1300, Knight, who along with Knight Robert Mowbray, returned and parliament paid them 28 pounds for 70 days expenses. Ch: Thomas, b. 1360, d. aft. 1406; William, b. 1376, d. aft. 1406, and Lord Robert del Sandes, b. bef. 1370, Rottenby Castle, St. Bees, Cumberland, Co. In 1401, lived in Graythwaite Hall, Newby Bridge, Ulverston, Lancashire. John Sandys, b. abt. 1402, Furness Fells Possibly from the Domeday Book, "By the end of the 15th Century, the leading families of Brocas, Lisle, and Sandes were resident primarily in Hampshire..Several greater 15th Century gentry families, including the greatest, the Sandys, built their successes on military careers abroad, consolidated by marriages into the Hampshire elite."

Sources
Individual: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=micha...
Family: http://gw4.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=mkfarkus&lang=fr;p=john;n=...
Search the original records

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sandys_Sandes-1

Biography

Walter Sandys was born circa 1376.[1]

He was born at Winchester, Hampshire, England.

Walter was the oldest son of Sir John Sandys.[1]

Walter married:

by 1401, Agnes, died before 1407, daughter and heir of Thomas Warrener of North Ashley and Preston Candover, Hampshire, and his second wife, Joan.[1] Walter and Agnes had two sons and one daughter:[1]
Thomas Sandys, oldest son and heir, born before 1407;[1]
Joan Sandys, who was married in 1414 to their neighbour, William Brocas of Beaurepaire, upon whom her father settled the manor of Sherborne "Coudray";[1]

by August 1427, Margaret Erleigh, born circa 1394, died March 1443, daughter and heir of John Erleigh of Beckington, Somerset, and his wife, Isabel, died 1434, and widow of John Seymour, died 1415, younger son Richard, Lord St Maur, died 1401, of Castle Cary Sore.[1]

(No children listed by 2nd marriage)

L S Woodger, "SANDYS, Sir Walter (c.1376-1435), of Sherborne 'Coudray', Hants. and East Cholderton", The History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1386-1421, ed. J.S. Roskell, L. Clark, C. Rawcliffe, (Boydell and Brewer, 1993), History of Parliament online (https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/s... : accessed 22 October, 2018).

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So geni shows this Margaret de Sondes As child of Margaret Cheyney & Sir Walter Sandys, MP

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From http://brennen.caltech.edu/earls/chap1.htm

"Margaret de Sondes, the daughter of Margaret de Erlegh and Sir Walter Sondes married John Erle of Ashburton, County Devon, who was probably the grandson of John de Erlegh(VI) and the son of Robert de Erlegh [37]."

http://brennen.caltech.edu/earls/chap1.htm

Margaret de Erlegh, the daughter and heir of John(VII) inherited Beckington. She married three times. Her first husband was Sir John St. Maur [31] who was the second son of Richard St. Maur and inherited from him the manor of North Molton, Devon [28]. John and Margaret had a son John. Margaret's second husband was Sir Walter Sondes and her third Sir William Chaney [11,v.2,p.199]. The second marriage produced a daughter, Margaret de Sondes [18], who is important to the story.

The John Erle(I), of Asburton, County Devon who married Margaret de Sondes must have been related to the Erles described in these parish records. This marriage produced two sons, Robert Erle(I) and John Erle(II). Both are identified as initiating important branches of the Erle family and we will describe both briefly. Note that John Erle(I) died in 1484 and his wife Margaret in 1472.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~desmier/genealogy/docs/Earles%20of%2...

We have thus followed the line of succession under the head of Beckington through sixteen generations, to the apparent extinction of the line with Margaret St. Maur. But, as we have seen above, Margaret de Erleigh (K 12), grand-daughter of "The White Knight," married three times. There was issue from each marriage, giving rise to other lines. Her descendants by her last marriage, to Sir William Cheney, Knt. (d. 1402), we do not purpose to follow further, but from her marriage to Sir Walter Sondes, Knt., originated two lines which are of exceeding great interest to us. Their daughter,
Margaret de Sondes, married John Erie of Ashburton and Culhampton, Devonshire, becoming the ancestress of the Devonshire Earles, whose fortunes we shall follow later.
Margaret de Sondes, who we shall designate as L 1, was a great-

12 EARLES OF ENGLAND—SOMERSET
grandchild of Sir John de Erleigh, "The White Knight." So was her husband, John Erie (d. 1484). They were therefore sec- ond cousins, and the lines originating with them were doubly descended
from the Earle stock. They had two sons, John of Culhampton, Devon (d. 1508), and Robert of Compton, Somerset (d. 1517).

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5LrMIB7JbUs/m/...

From Paul Reed

SANDYS/SONDES:

As we've already covered the St. Maurs, let's turn to the Sandys marriage. Sir
Walter Sandys, M. P., b. ca. 1376, d. 1435, was son of Sir John Sandys (d.
1395) [Governor of Winchester Castle, Sheriff of Hampshire1383] by his wife
Joan de Fifield. At his death, Sir Walter held many manors in Hampshire and
Sussex, including Andevere [Andover], Up Clatford, Enham militis [Knights'
Enham], Ayllefes, Langestoke, Chelwarton and Elfefeld, co. Hants., and
Shermanbury, Kingeston and Berkham, co. Sussex.

Sir Walter married (1) by 1401, Agnes Warrener (d. by 1407), daughter and heir
of Thomas Warrener of North Ashley and Preston Candover, co. Hants, by whom he
had two sons and one daughter. Sir Walter (knighted by 1401) married Margaret
de Erleigh by Aug. 1427. Walter's mother's holdings (the manors she held in
jointure and dower) were worth 147 l. per annum in 1412 (Walter's own lands
were worth about 61 l. per annum in 1412). His first wife was a kinsman of
Bishop Wickham of Winchester, whose will (1403) left about 100 l. to Walters
first wife and her children. As Agnes predeceased her father, it was her
infant son Thomas Sandys who inherited her father's estate in Sep. 1407 (Thomas
came of age in June 1425, and was therefore born 1404) [see Roskell, History of
Parliament 3:303-4].

Sir Walter's second wife, Margaret de Erleigh, received several manors,
including Rowden and Box, co. Wilts., and Beckington, Babcury, Pury and Durston
in co. Somerset at the death of her mother Isabel, wife of Sir John Rouden, in
Nov. 1434. Sir Walter Sandys died 17 June 1435. Margaret, his widow, had an
income of about 252 l. per annum after his death. She died in 1443.

Thomas Sandys, son and heir of Sir Walter by his first wife, died in 1442. By
his second wife, Sibyl (d. 1446), Thomas was father of Sir William Sandys (d.
1496), who married Margaret Cheyne, daughter of Sir John Cheyne of Shurland, in
the Isle of Sheppey, co. Kent. They were parents of William, 1st Lord Sandys.

hough Margaret de Erleigh, widow of Sir Walter de Sandys and Sir William de
Cheyne, died seised of one fourth of the manor of Westbury, it did not come to
her through her own Paveley inheritance; it had been the holding of her first
husband, John de St. Maur, having been settled on him by his mother Ela
[Eleanor] [de St. Lo] de St. Maur, widow of Sir Richard.

pcr

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According to Reed’s notes, the only child of Margaret de Erlegh was John St Maur.

So we’ve now linked up properly & resolved wandering duplicate profiles for the ancestry of William Sandys, 1st Baron Sandys who married Margery Bray

He was the son of William Sandys, of the Vyne & Lady Margaret Sandys

William was the son of Thomas Sandys & his 2nd wife Sibyl Sandys

Thomas was the eldest son and heir of Sir Walter Sandys, MP

Bt his 1st wife Agnes Warrener through=6000000047792020835

And Walter was the son of Sir John Sandys, MP And Joan "Fifhide", Heiress of the Vyne

Cross referencing some previous notes from Nick Alexander

https://www.geni.com/discussions/202363?msg=1445813

THE SANDYS FAMILY OF HAMPSHIRE AND SURREY

Sir John Sandys died in 1395 and his widow Joan died in 1415 with their combined estate passing to their son Sir Walter Sandys who had been born c1377.

Walter represented the County of Hampshire in the Parliament of 1414 and may have broken his journey to and from London with the Brays at Chiswick.

Sir Walter married Agnes Warriner in c1401 and they had three children: Thomas, William and Joanna. Joanna married William Brocas, one of Sir Walter’s close friends and associates. Walter gave them The Vyne to live in. It was just a few miles from the Brocas home at Beaurepaire.

Sir Walter’s wife Agnes died in c1407 and he married Margaret Erleigh as his second wife. He had a daughter Margaret by this second marriage. (She is wrongly shown as the daughter of William Sandes and Margaret Rawson of Esthwaite in the Cumberland Visitation of 1615.) Sir Walter died in 1435 and his widow Margaret died in 1443 having married Sir William Cheyne the Chief Justice as her second husband. In c1442, Sir Walter’s daughter Margaret married Sir Richard Bray as his second wife.

Sir Walter’s older son Thomas Sandys grew up at East Cholderton. His wife’s name was Sybil and they had two sons: William born in 1439 and Christopher born about two years later. Thomas died in 1442 and, after Sybil died in 1445, it is presumed that William and Christopher were brought up by their uncle William with his own family.

(I’ll continue after conforming to those notes, Visitations of Cumberland, which has errors, uploaded here:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175558697028

https://media.geni.com/p13/16/93/ba/38/5344485ecc752044/sandes_in_v...

To William Sandes and
Margaret Sandys

This William seems to be wrongly attached as son of William Sandes, of Furness Fells & daughter Betham ?

Visitations says son of George Sandes of Furness Fells in Lancashire

I agree with Erica's report on May 14 at 7.46pm EXCEPT that it was MARGERY Bray (not Margaret) who married William later Lord Sandys.
Many of the printed records of William Lord Sandys show him as Sandes but these are transcripts from original manuscripts in which the word ending -dys or -des is often difficult to differentiate.
I would question whether Margery was "heiress of Bray. She was the daughter of John Bray the elder who was the son of Richard Bray and his first wife Margaret Sandys. I believe that John Bray the elder had died in about 1461 just before the birth of John Bray the younger who was the second son of Richard Bray by his second wife John Troughton. Sir Reginald Bray was the first son of this second marriage and thus was the male heir of Richard Bray.
Richard Bray probably had very little property to leave to his heirs. Sir Reginald Bray was very wealthy partly because of the many grants made to him by King henry VII and partly through using his position to persuade landowners to sell him their property in return for favours from the King.
Sir John Sandys was a first cousin of Thomas del Sandes MP for Cumberland in 1391 and 1395. Thomas bought Redmain Manor near Cockermouth from Sir Matthew Redmayne. I believe that John Sandys accompanied Sir Matthew Redmayne to France in 1367 to join the troops of the Black Prince. John Sandys was knighted in France in 1375 and married the widow Joan Bridges (formerly Fifhide) in 1375 or 1376 on his return to England.

Sir Walter Sandys of East Cholderton must have married his second wife Margaret Erleigh very soon after the death of his first wife Agnes Warriner in 1407 and their daughter Margaret must have been born in about 1409. Otherwise she would have been impossibly young to marry Richard Bray and have his first child John Bray the elder in about 1432.

I tis certain that a Christoher Sandes (or Sandys) was in the household of henry Stafford and Margaret Beaufort at Woking near Guildford in Surrey as he was rewarded for his good service to Margaret' and her son King Henry VII. I believe that this Christopher was the second son of Thomas Sandys and Sybil and that he was born in about 1440. I have recently discovered that a Christopher Sandys was apprenticed to the Mercers Company in London in 1443. His record lacks then usual details of who his father was and where he came form but it is most likely that he was born in about 1425 as a younger son of Thomas Sandys who is believed to have been the second son of Sir John Sandys and brother of Sir Walter Sandys. On this basis, the Christopher Sandys at Woking was a cousin of the Christopher who became a Mercer.
It is very relevant that Christopher Sandys and Sir Reginald Bray were close in age and both in Margaret Beaufort's household at Woking in about 1488 when Christopher's nephew William Sandys married Sir Reginald's niece Margery Bray.

It’s beginning to hang together. There’s still a lot of confusion though.

“ John Bray, the elder, had issue, Margaret, his daughter and heiress (as also heiress to Reginald* who married the first Lord Sandys as before mentioned (see page 6).”

So the “heiress of Bray” is the next generation Margaret.

This profile / family is confused William Sandes, of Furness Fells

Lady Margaret Bray Makes more sense as daughter of Walter but needs more proof.