Neche Pazernov - Any Evidence?

Rabbi Moshe Joseph Pazernov
1750–1800
BIRTH 1750 • Wilkomir, Ukmerg, Kovno, Kauno, Lithuania
DEATH 1800 • Wilkomir, Ukmerg, Kovno, Kauno, Lithuania

Neche (Nechema) Pazernov
1746–
BIRTH 1746 • Wilkomir, Ukmerg, Kovno, Kauno, Lithuania
DEATH Wilkomir, Vilniaus, Lithuania

Shlioma Pazernov
in the Lithuania, Tax and Voters Lists, 1839-1949 (various years)
No record imageLithuania, Tax and Voters Lists, 1839-1949 (various years)
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DetailSource
Name: Shlioma Pazernov
Record Type: Box Taxpayers
Residence Date: 1877
Residence Place: Ukmerge, Kaunas, Lithuania
Residence Region (Uyezd): Ukmerge
Father:
Iosel
Comments: absent, not poor
Archive/Fond/Inventory/File Number: KRA/I-49/1/12938
Page number: 260
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Rabbi Moshe Yosef "yossel" Pazernov
Birth Circa 1790
Vilkomir, Ukmerg, Kovna, Russia (Lithuania)
Marriage Marriage to: Neche Pasanov
Circa 1814
Vilkomir, Ukmerg, Kovna, Russia (Lithuania)
Death Circa 1875
Ukmerge, Vilniaus, Lithuania

Family members
Parents
Rabbi Moshe Yosef Pasanov Finn
1790 - 1875
Neche Pasanov Finn
1800 - 1875
Wife
Rivka Finn (born Sigel)
1845 - 1901
Wife
Keile (Pazernov) Finn (born Pazoll)
1820 - 1875
Wife
Katy Finn
Wife
Rochla Finn
Siblings
Yente Golding (born Pazernov)
1828 - 1915
Shlomo Halevi Pasanov
1843 - 1899
Ida Gale (born Finn)
1849 - 1912
Abraham Hyman Barron
1841 - 1906
Isaac Finn
1843 - 1906
Children
Simon Aaron Shloime Aron Pazernov Finn
1841 - 1934
Baila Finegold (born Finn)
1850 - 1923
Nathan E. Pazernov Finn
1865 - 1953
Samuel J. (Pazernov) Finn
1877 - 1975
Israel (Pazernov) Finn
1879 - 1965
Ida Gale (born Finn)
1849 - 1912
Hanah (Cherna) Cherna Chayet (born Pazernov)
1851 - ?
Nellie Kaner (born Pazernov - Finn)
1870 - 1960
Hyman (Pazernov) Finn
1879 - 1984

Private User -

1) You are copying and pasting information from some place, but you are not including where you are copying the info from. With no idea what the source is, it does not count as evidence.

2) Simply being in a Tree someplace is not evidence, so simply copying from a Tree, even if you tell us what Tree it is and/or provide a link to it or some other way for us to see it is not evidence.

3) The Topic here is "Neche Pazernov - Any Evidence?" - so to count here the evidence needs to be about Neche Pazernov .
Much of what you have taken up space pasting is not about anyone named Neche Pazernov.
Moreover, the link is there Neche Pazernov
Your first post does at least mention that Neche
Your 2nd and 3rd posts, while they do mention a Neche Pazernov, the one they mention is the wife of the grandson of the Neche Pazernov being asked about here. So not relevant here.

Randy Schoenberg
Hatte Blejer (absent until Nov 1)
Erica Howton

Private User is clearly trying
Could one or more of you explain what counts as evidence, how to present it, etc. and or links to where he can obtain that information.
And if I misspoke in my post just above, will you please let both of us know, and correct it.

Rereading, I see my first post is open to misinterpretation. By
"There are Trees on Ancestry that include her spouse, but not her"
I was in no way suggesting that she was not included in many of the trees that had her spouse - but rather that, at least to me, her absence on some of them suggested some people had failed to find any evidence about her, and that this made it especially important to actually find evidence, or if none could be found, perhaps Geni should simply list her as unknown.

Thanks, Erica Howton

And I agree about the lack of evidence about Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov
Do not know if you noticed I had also started a Public Discussion about him.
In it, I tagged Harold Rhode and asked Harold
"What records and/or info did you obtain about him?
How do you think his last name should be listed?"

I also have sent Harold Rhode an email. Hopefully he will be kind enough to respond to one or both.

I heard him speak in the past at an IAJGS Conference, and he came across to me as an excellent researcher and very knowledgeable about the Pazernov line, which is one of his ancestral lines. Before that, when I had first seen the profiles from Earle Scharff's GedCom Import of July 2009 of the Pazernov extended family I had seen that his info seemed to match a Tree I found from Harold Rhode (possibly a slightly earlier edition of https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/r/h/o/Harold-Rhode-MD/index.html ) - and had been thinking Earle Scharff got his info from Harold Rhode.

The Tree Harold sent me in 2016, and the Tree Harold has posted in JewishGen do not include a wife of Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov . Earle's import also did not include her.

. Will try, but the changes you made make it a whole lot harder for me to orient --
can you give some background on the profiles you added and moved today:
(Father of Moshe Yankel) Pazernov - showing now as "? Pazernov" Added today - Immediate Family: Son of Moshe FinnPazernov and Neche Pazernov
Father of Movshe Pazernov
Brother of Shlomo Pazernov

His Revision Tab says ? Pazernov was added as Movshe Pazernov's brother by Randy Schoenberg. -- about an hour ago
But he is not now Moshe's brother.

And on Moshe's Revision list I see
---Movshe Pazernov was disconnected from his parents Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov and Neche Pazernov and siblings Shlomo Pazernov and ? Pazernov by Randy Schoenberg.
about an hour ago
----Movshe Pazernov was connected to ? Pazernov as his son by Randy Schoenberg.
about an hour ago
----? Pazernov was added as Movshe Pazernov's brother by Randy Schoenberg.
about an hour ago

Why?

Harold Yisrael Zvi Rhode is, I believe, the Harold Rhode who is an expert on this family.

Randy Schoenberg

My relatives are descendants of Moshe FinnPazernov and Neche Pazernov's son. Shlomo Pazernov

The Descendants list you gave a link to goes to 5 generations -- I see nothing there in Shlomo's descendants that should be severed, deleted or merged.
What, if anything, are you seeing as being questionable there?

I know that line has relatives who married, but I am not noticing the effects of that there, either.

If I go out to 6 generations, then there start being a lot of Profiles that are Private to me. So no idea which, if any, of those are duplicates or not.

This couple:. Molly (Gale) Finn b. April 1879; d. 1932 +Samuel Finn b. January 15, 1877, Lietuva (Lithuania); d. March 3, 1975, Stoughton, Norfolk, MA, United States; m. circa 1907
Appears as Gen. 6 for Molly dau of Ida
AND
As Gen 5 for Samuel son of Lieber
That is correct.

Is it just the descendants of Shlomo's sibling that you have questions about? Or ??

Moshe Yankel Pazernov

Moshe Y Pazernov's children are Yeshayahu Finn, Yente Pazernov, Isaac Finn, and Shlomo H. Pazernov

(Father of Moshe Yankel) Pazernov

? Pazernov should be Moses Fine

Randy Schoenberg - It would have been much, much easier for me to have worked on this if you had left it as it was and asked the questions.

Below are all Added by: Dr. Earle Scharff on July 11, 2009 -- undoubtedly based on or from the Tree created by Harold Rhode. Or as indicated, maybe be by him

1) (father Leiba) Pazernov - but apparently as ? Pazernov, and I updated to Deceased in March 2019. He has AKA ?2 /Pazernov/ - and the same day I changed his first name from ? to Moshe, so clearly that is on me to try to re-work
You have added another generation between him and what had been his parents
Apparently you did this because you felt "it did not look very likely that Movshe b. 1792 was the son of Mosh"
BUT - did you see my comment in the About "--See Timeline. -- -- Birth is a major estimate - could be way off."
Did you read the rest of my comment on his About?? It provides the "evidence that: Movsha father of Leyba Pozernov and Shlioma father of Movsha Iosel Pozernov are siblings" And for the first name being Movshe.
RANDY - NOTE: Birth was a major estimate, relationship was much more certain. If birth was only reason for adding the extra generation, please revert
Or explain why yo reject my reasoning.

2) Moshe Yankel Pazernov - in March 2019 I changed him to deceased and changed his first name from Moshe to Moshe Yankel. He has documentation in the About and the Timeline
You recently disconnected him from the World Tree so I can no longer work on him.

3) Leiba Pazernov = Leiba Pazernov - has documentation in his Timeline
who you suggest as a duplicate of
Maybe 4) Leiber Mendel Finn = Leiber Mendel (Pazernov) Finn (as currently listed) - who was added by Harriet (Perlman) Manis (of blessed memory) on October 19, 2008. - and was probably merged with one created by Dr. Earle Scharff on July 11, 2009 since has Marcia Brenda Schulman as a Manager and she took over from him -- It has documentation in the About and the Timeline and in Media

Maybe 5) Simon Aaron Finn was also added by Harriet (Perlman) Manis (of blessed memory), this time on October 26, 2008. - and was probably merged with one created by Dr. Earle Scharff on July 11, 2009 since has Marcia Brenda Schulman as a Manager and she took over from him -- It has documentation in the Timeline and Media

6) Isaac Finn - has documentation in About and Media

Maybe 7) Shlomo Halevi Pasanov was also added by Harriet (Perlman) Manis (of blessed memory), this time on October 20, 2008. - and was probably merged with one created by Dr. Earle Scharff on July 11, 2009 since has Marcia Brenda Schulman as a Manager and she took over from him -- It has some documentation in the About and Timeline and Media

I believe that is everybody you have asked about so far. Please see my comments on 1).
I will look further into the others anon. Should have been sleeping instead of writing this.

Randy Schoenberg
Harold Rhode is a direct descendant of Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov
He started his research long before there were any online data bases.
I am not sure whether he has both ha information and copies of records from the Archives AND has looked at actual records at the Archives
but I have heard him give at least one presentation at one of the Annual IAJGS Conferences,
and I think he said he did.

There is no reason to believe that every single record he received or looked at in person has been digitized.

Nobody is perfect, but given that together with how much of what he had I have been able to find online records verifying, my strong recommendation is to go with what he had unless
a) we see what he has now is different
And/or
b) we find records indicating something different

**"he has both ha information and"
should just be "he has both information and"

This is one posting directly from Harold Rhode https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/r/h/o/Harold-Rhode-MD/index.html
He also has a Tree posted in JewishGen
And I have a Tree he sent me in 2016
Do not know if his most recent iteration is posted anywhere or???
If you have a paid Ancestry Account you can perhaps see if he has a Tree posted there.
(AncestryLibrary shows Trees but does not show whose Tree it is.)

Randy,

You are adding and changing faster than I can respond.

With regard to what Mitchell (currently shown as M. Bloom = Private User - he has repeatedly changed his Display Name) believes and has added

I know Ashkenazi Jews are an endogamous population and so
1) it is totally common to find some level of a DNA match between any two Ashkenazi Jews
2) the relationship indicated by a DNA match between two Ashkenazi Jews should generally be ignored, unless it is second cousin or higher

As far as I can tell, Mitchell has a DNA Match to a descendant of Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov - specifically a descendant of his son Shlomo - and it gave a suggested relationship.
I believe that and the fact that Moses is a variation of Movshe and Fine looks like Finn are the basis for Mitchell's beliefs.
There are many versions of the Tree for Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov on Ancestry.
I believe Mitchell may have his so it shows Moses Fine as a child of Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov and that as a result it shows the profile for his DNA match with the suggested relationship to him.

I do not think that is a reason for Geni to show that relationship.

I agree with you that it seems Mitchell has started building out a duplicate tree again at Rabbi Moshe FinnPazernov - and I think it should be stopped unless he provides actual documentation.
I have seen have absolutely no reason to believe Rabbi Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov is the father of Moses Fine = Moses Fine
nor that Shlomo Pazernov = Shlomo Pazernov is the brother of Moses Fine.

My suggestion - delete both Moses Fine's father and brother, and Master and Relationship lock Moses Fine.
To be added back and/or Moses connected to Shlomo Pazernov only if and when sufficient documentation and proof has been provided.

And if possible, try to explain to Private User that the Relationship mentioned on a DNA site is one suggestion, not gospel. And that relationships shown by Thrulines are also not gospel, and need to be confirmed by documentation.

Moshe Y Pazernov's descendant:

Yeshayahu Finn
Iosel Y J Finn
Abraham Y Finn
George Joseph Finn
My 5th cousin 1x removed (29cM 4 segments)

Yente Pazernov
Hinde/Annie Golding
Nellie Kaplan
Georgette Y Cohen
My 5th cousin 1x removed (9 cM 3 segments)

Issac P Finn
Morris Finn
Harry Finn
Steven S G Finn
My 5th cousin 1x removed (14 cM 2 segments)

Shlomo H Pazernov
Neche P Kronick
Morris I. Gordon
My 5th cousin (8 cM 3 segments)

Itzak Finn
Yeshayahu H Finn
Iosel Y J Finn
Abraham Y Finn
Arlene Theresa Finn
My 5th cousin 1x removed (12 cM 3 segments)

Iosel Y J Finn, HaLevi

I see Iosel Finn's 4 DNA matches.

Randy Schoenberg - forgot to tag you in my comment above.
Also
By the way -- there is no documentation showing that Herbert (Herzl) Bloom (or the "duplicate brother Herbert Rosenberg Bloom" that Customer Service created) is a child of Jacob Rosenberg and Toba (Fine) Rosenberg = Jacob Yehuda Rosenberg and Toba Chaye Rosenberg

Discussed in Herbert (Herzl) Bloom#/tab/discussion

That connection was added by Mitchell and is, I believe, based on a similar "understanding" of DNA results by Mitchell.
Without that connection Mitchell would not be descended from Moses Fine, and so would not be trying to do that connecting of Moses Fine to Moshe Joseph FinnPazernov

The duplicate of Herbert was authorized by Mike Stangel because he felt close in, Mitchell should be able to show his family as he believed it was, even if there was no documentation - and Geni could also show the relationships provided by documentation.

The lack of any reason to believe in the connection to Jacob Rosenberg and Toba (Fine) Rosenberg was discovered after he made that decision, and I do not know if Mike is willing for it to be deleted. -- and if so, for both versions of Herbert or?

On the other hand, Mike was quite clear that far back, Mitchell's beliefs were not to be a determining factor, if there was no documentation, then he was not to be adding or connecting profiles.

(I have tagged him so he can clarify or correct, if I misunderstood or misstated)