Werigand (Wezzalin) von Istrien, Graf von Istrien-Frioul

Livio Scremin

3/31/2022 at 1:42 PM

Hi Erica Howton
I have just documentally solved the conflict on Liutold, Comte de Montbéliard
rightly married to Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard

the problem is that she shouldn't be married to Count Werigand of Istria-Friuli
in fact his wife should be the namesake Williburga II, de Semta et Ebersberg, comitissa
------------

Documentation primary sources & links to MedLands project are available TEXT-TAGGHED in the profiles indicated (&also others:)

particularly in : Count Werigand of Istria-Friuli
of which I ask for the "unblocking of relationships" so I can FIX.

the discussion is open to notify the various (C) involved, but in reality @Erica and me have been studying the situation for a couple of days already... (let it be done in confidence, quietly monitoring when the job is finished:)

Ingrīda Cinkmane (Dzelvīte)

3/31/2022 at 1:50 PM

Werigand (Wezzalin) von Istrien, Graf von Istrien-Frioul is my 24th great grandfather
Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard is my 24th great grandmother.
Liutold, Comte de Montbéliard is my 25th great grandfather.
Williburg Di Friuli is my first cousin 25 times removed.

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 5:42 PM

Relationship locks removed. I might try undo merge.

Livio Scremin

3/31/2022 at 6:00 PM

oh .. you have taken the path of the old UNDOs >.<
mixing everything up again >.<

Livio Scremin

3/31/2022 at 6:37 PM

I believe that run UNDO so old like 2015 (7 years ago) ..have BUGHED something.

for example TREE HTML is opened blank by some profiles .. type:
-MP Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard
-MP Count Werigand of Istria-Friuli
- Williburga II, de Semta et Ebersberg, comitissa

Don't get me wrong, they were MERGE wrong, but after 7 years, it's too dangerous to settle down with UNDO.. now I hope it is a question of server update time or other "deep stuff" to wait ^^' GL :D

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 7:41 PM

It’s update time needed, and then cleanup.

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 7:42 PM

(I’ve fixed worse.). It’s always better to try merge undo from the profile manager point of view.

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 9:03 PM

It does not look like these sisters are the same.

https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000003858547566

J P Weyers

3/31/2022 at 9:47 PM

Too much speculation.
Added as per sources , see siblings I also added.
However sources differ , some good some bad.
Please undo bad mergers . I am sure they were not intentional.

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 9:51 PM

The undo merge went well, and I think Williburga II, de Semta et Ebersberg, comitissa & Count Werigand of Istria-Friuli are good except for confusing daughters Luitgard, Gräfin im Inngau & Luitgard, Gräfin im Inngau - if anyone wants to progress them with Medlands?

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 9:55 PM

Private - I think of any work in this area, particularly without biographies! Is heroic. I’m pretty thrilled undo merge went this well and that now we can really dive in.

What pops up to me -

The names for Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard are a mess, can we improve?

How firm is her parentage? Cawley is clear on uncertainty, and I see that Italian Wikipedia gives him a different daughter altogether:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalbert_of_Italy does not list this Williberg as a daughter of Adalbert of Italy.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalberto_II_d%27Ivrea lists as only daughter, Gisella (962-1020), sposata nel 983 al marchese Anselmo I del Monferrato

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 10:02 PM

Ah! No wonder we’re showing two Liutgard daughters.

Luitgard, Gräfin im Inngau

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engelbert_IV._%28Sieghardinger%29

Engelbert IV was married to Liutgard, whose ancestry is extremely controversial (according to historian Gewin, it was Liutgard, the daughter of Count Werigand of Istria-Friaul).

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 10:03 PM

I spoke too soon. German Wikipedia gives Weriand & Williburg more than the 2 children Cawley does.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werigand_(Friaul)

J P Weyers

3/31/2022 at 10:06 PM

Have to find my references not online but on paper.

Too many contradictory sources so I stopped adding .

J P Weyers

3/31/2022 at 10:37 PM

Many reliable professional researchers have struggled with who is who , who married to who wirh these families for years
Livio -- in all fairness not just going to be resolved " sommer " in a few days. .

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 11:28 PM

At least we’re paying attention.

Found a great source for the Weriand side.

Josip Banic (ed.), Fontes Istrie medievalis, vol. 2: A 804 usque ad 1077, doc. 1045_HD, fontesistrie.eu/1045_HD (retrieved 31 March 2022) “Notices from the cartularies of the Ebersberg and Geisenfeld monasteries regarding the heirs of the house Sempt-Ebersberg: Williburga II, her daughter Hademoud II, and her grandson Ulrich I.” < link

Erica Howton C

3/31/2022 at 11:44 PM

So this looks like the (surviving) family of Weriand, different death date from Medlands

Fontes Istrie Medievalis

Werihen III, comes Foriiulii, comes Istriae († c. 1028)

pater Azzonis
maritus Williburge II, de Sempt-Ebersberg, comitisse
pater Hademoudis II, comitisse
pater Gerbrigis, abbatisse monasterii Geisenfeldensis
pater Liutcardis

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 12:39 AM

Disconnected Luitgard, Gräfin im Inngau from parents. She was the wife of Engelbert IV, Graf im Inngau and currently showing with one child, Richardis von Sponheim

There could be more children to be added to this couple, but I haven’t looked into sourcing etc, so …

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 12:57 AM

Wrong again!

https://fontesistrie-eu.translate.goog/Offprints/sg1.svg?_x_tr_sch=... “Is” the Liutgards as the same woman.

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 3:42 AM

Here’s the Ebersberg tree in a chart:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000183873013821&graph_node_id=profile-7415042&mode=followed

Livio Scremin

4/1/2022 at 6:06 AM

with a huge ride, ..but I see FIXED perfectly when described by me in the beginning discussion.

I would have contented myself with fixing yesterday's situation, but maybe J P Weyers you don't know @Erica.. is a genealogical war machine :D
[she just fixed 2015 errors surmounted by other years of lawful actions, not only by following the primary sources, but also trying to question them by re-examining them (I hope my TEXT-TAGs in the info-about were useful to you)]

so discussion SOLVED (now a little mother conflict left over Adelheid von Achalm after the UNDOs:)

Livio Scremin

4/1/2022 at 6:23 AM

practically there is this 2012 unknown unsourced bulk white male profile mono admin Willebirg von Wulfingen, WRONG
to cut or delete
(was merged on female Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard)
{erasable mistake profile?}

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 6:26 AM

Ha, you think it’s over? Philip is right, the genealogy could take years. Or at least another day.

- of course the Medlands references were great. To me, Cawley’s work in this area is good, but not great. What’s good is that he left off what he didn’t know, such as the Luitgard issue: he just presents her birth, which is what got me looking for more info.

- so - we want to resolve Luitgard for Geni. The primary source at the medieval Istria site confirms her birth but I have not yet seen the verification of her marriage - so another pair of eyes is appreciated:

https://fontesistrie.eu/ I looked up the author, he’s a professor in Zagreb, with substantial publications. Do we want to write to him? Not yet - I think we need to gather the questions.

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 6:32 AM

Livio, usually I just merge a mistake like that in. It’s not worth it to send single profiles to geni for deleting. And she was probably a she before the merge undo - that’s a bug we work around. The name could be a clue, also.

Which brings me to my other big question.

Was Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard really a daughter of Adalbert II, king of Italy and how do we verify, one way or another? And how do we want to show the ambiguity in geni? Generally speaking, we cut …

Also notice. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalberto_II_d%27Ivrea lists as only daughter, Gisella (962-1020), sposata nel 983 al marchese Anselmo I del Monferrato

Is this valid?

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 6:35 AM

Oh, and is Werian lll’s father really unknown? There seems to be a lot of “probably” pater Azzonis.

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 6:39 AM

J. Banic’s c.v. at the end of this paper.

https://events.ceu.edu/sites/default/files/media/attachment/dissert...

Livio Scremin

4/1/2022 at 7:21 AM

I saw that wiki page ita, it ' a great useful description but it is not referenced for the descendant..
..ML's supposition, on the other hand, seems to me to make sense, and well described if necessary shifts should emerge in the future.

..& to tell you, you know that I also took care of the "Aleramic of the Monferrato".. but that wiki ITA connection:
" Gisella (962-1020), sposata nel 983 al marchese Anselmo I del Monferrato "
I've never come across it, & locking for it I see that it is an error of homonymy:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselmo_I_del_Monferrato:
"Egli sposò Gisla, figlia del marchese Adalberto, a sua volta figlio di Oberto I della dinastia degli Obertenghi, dinastia vicina alle zone appartenenti agli Aleramici.[1] "

-Adalberto II degli Obertenghi, di Milano
VS
-Adalbert II, king of Italy

homonymy already reported around with some warning notes both on and in the info-about.

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 7:39 AM

I was just about to say, Adalbert of Milan mixup.

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalberto_I_di_Milano

Adalberto had several children:

Gisla, who married Anselmo I of Monferrato .

Leo’s page does not have any daughters for Adalbert of Ivrka

https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00036197&tree=LEO

So why is geni showing with a daughter again?

Livio Scremin

4/1/2022 at 7:54 AM

is written in the profile of Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard

is described as presumed daughter, as you can see it is inside [square brackets]

b) [WILLIBIRG. Jackman suggests[555] that the mother of Hunfried canon at Strasbourg was the daughter of Adalberto associate King of Italy. He bases this on onomastic reasons, in particular the importation of the Ivrean name Berengar into the family of Liutold and the use of "Willa" among the ancestors of Adalbert King of Italy. However, another origin is suggested by the necrology of Zwiefalten which records the death "XIV Kal Dec" of "Unruoch proavus Liutoldi comitis"[556]. If this great grandfather were the father of Willibirg, it may also explain how the name Berenger entered the family, assuming Unruoch was related to the Unruochingi Counts of Friulia.

m LIUTOLD Graf im Sundgau, son of KONRAD Duke of Swabia [Konradiner] & his wife Richlint of Germany.]

Erica Howton C

4/1/2022 at 7:59 AM

Private User - do you have thoughts on parents of both Liutold, Comte de Montbéliard & Williberga, Countess of Montbéliard

I see you had worked on this family a few years ago.

Werigand (Wezzalin) von Istrien, Graf von Istrien-Frioul - wife homonymous

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