Elizabeth le Despenser, Baroness Berkeley - Despenser & related family questions & fixes

Started by Erica Howton on Saturday, April 16, 2022
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Did Elizabeth de Berkeley, widow of Maurice de Berkeley, marry again? Medievalist Doug Richardson lists it. See the discussion:

Possibly she married again: “Reviewing the evidence, it is clear now that Sir Maurice Wythe's wife, lady Elizabeth de Berkeley, was Elizabeth le Despenser, widow of Maurice de Berkeley, Knt., 4th Lord Berkeley. …” but a credible contemporaneous source claimed she died without remarrying. See the soc.genealogy.medieval mail group discussion from 2004: <“Elizabeth de Berkeley, wife of Sir Maurice Wyth” >

Other questions to follow.

Copying over from https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1556528

From what I can tell, the Anne Despenser as a wife has been disproven., so she should be unlocked as a wife to this guy. Also, the daughters Maud (1268-1298) who married Thomas Berkeley and Anne (1268-1337) who married John de Grey should also go with Anne Despenser.

Sir William de Ferrers of Groby

The About comments seem to be only 1st Anne Durward and 2nd Eleanor Lovaine.
I think maybe they came from this source (see lower left of page 13), but Sir William de Ferrers as a son is obviously wrong.
http://plheineman.net/24%20Generation.pdf

It seems wikitree also had that problem with Anne de Ferrers b. 1268 as daughter of Anne Despenser being linked to John de Grey.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-56

https://stirnet.com/genie/data/british/dd/despencer1.php#anne2 shows Elizabeth as wife only of Maurice de Berkeley.

https://stirnet.com/genie/data/british/dd/despencer1.php#linklo shows Anne as a wife of William de Ferrers of Groby. Clicking on William's link there (https://stirnet.com/genie/data/british/ff/ferrers2.php#top) jumps to the "Ferrers2" page where Anne is revealed as his 1st wife.

For anyone who's curious, Anne is a paternal aunt of Elizabeth.

Sources that Peter Barns-Graham (Private) consulted to build the "Despencer1" page (of which only the latter portion is relevant to this discussion):

• "The Complete Peerage" by George Edward Cokayne, Clarenceux King of Arms
• Despenser, three sections:
• the line that produced the Earls of Winchester and Gloucester
• the family of King's Stanley
• the branch of Goxhill
• "Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages of the British Empire", 1883 edition, published by Burke's Peerage
• Despencer of Winchester
• Despencer of Gloucester

(Awww, Geni removed my tabs! Sad John.)

John Albert Rigali if you have a chance, take a read at Richardson discussing the 2nd marriage with medievalists, and he did publish. It starts with an entry: “Interestingly, the contemporary episcopal register of Bishop Wykeham
contains an entry dated 1372 regarding a certain Elizabeth de Berkeley, wife of Sir Maurice Wyth. This women is identified in the text as the kinswoman of John de Hastings, Earl of Pembroke.” So Richardson thought this was Maurice’s daughter.

But - “Elizabeth, Lady Berkeley, widow of Maurice, 4th Lord Berkeley (d. 1368), was buried, accoriding to CP, "at St. Bodolph's, London". Strong evidence that she was also the widow of Sir Mayrice Wyth. I'd wondered why Elizabeth was buried in London while the Berkeley tombs were in Bristol and Gloucestershire - this explains it.”

Her daughter was likely too young to be the Wyth widow.

Erica, I don't have the time, I'll just take your word for it. =)

I'm wondering if Maurice Wythe is connected to the aforementioned Maurice Wythe.

With a bad date. :)

Erica Howton John Albert Rigali
I sent an email to the people at Wikitree to see more detail about Anne Dispenser NOT being the wife of William Ferrers.
The Anne Dispenser profile there was unlinked from William Ferrers
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Despenser-57
>>>Research Notes
Anne did not marry William Ferrers. From his father's profile, he married Anne Durward, daughter of Alan Durward.... However Weis, Ancestral Roots, 2006, line 58 no. 30, has Anne le Despencer, dau. of Hugh le Despencer, 1st Baron Despencer, who was slain at the battle of Evesham.

Anne also did not marry John St Amand, who was married to Margaret le Despenser, Anne's niece.

A note on William Ferrers' profile states that "Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry lists only William as a child. Ann and Julian are children of Ann Despenser, not a wife of this William."

If Ann Ferrers and Julian Ferrers are her children, then she married a Ferrers, but I cannot figure out who.

~ Noland-165 03:23, 4 May 2015 (EDT)

And To William's profile
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-37
>>>Marriages and Children
William married first Anne Durward,[5] widow of Colban of Fife, Knt., 8th Earl of Fife, and daughter and co-heiress of Sir Alan Durward, Usher of the King of Scots and Justiciar of Scotland, and Marjory, illegitimate daughter of Alexander II, King of Scotland. They were married in about 1270.[2][6] They had one son:
William, Knt., 1st Lord Ferrers of Groby, born 30 January 1271/2, died 20 March 1324/5, married Margaret de Segrave and had issue, married second Ellen (or Eleanor[2][3]
William married second Eleanor de Lovaine,[5] daughter of Sir Mathew de Lovaine[4] by his wife Muriel.[2] The date and place of their marriage are unknown and are estimated.<<<

And this about an Anne Beauchamp mentioned in a peerage book that also references gives the proof found about Anne Durward. I think by Anne Beauchamp, they mean Anne Dispenser. (link to discussion is in this paragraph of his profile). This section is about 25% down search Find Durward.

>>>Disproved Marriage to Anne Beauchamp
Complete Peerage states that William's first wife was Anne Beauchamp.[4] Douglas Richardson disproved this in 2008 and provides several sources to prove William's marriage was to Anne Durward. See this 2008 conversation in soc.genealogy.medieval for detail.

>>>In an editorial note in the same volume found on page 485, the
following information is provided by the editors regarding Anne, wife
successively of Colban, Earl of Fife, and William de Ferrers:

"... the widow of Colban earl of Fife , was called Anne; she was the
the daughter of Sir Hugh le Despenser, who had served as justiciar of
England during the period of Baronial Reform, and had died at Evesham
(C.P., iv, 261); cf. Scots Peerage, iv, 10–11 where it is suggested
without evidence that she was daughter of Alan Durward." END OF
QUOTE.

Actually the reverse is true. Complete Peerage cites no whatsoever
evidence as to Anne's identity as the daughter of Hugh le Despenser.
But Scots Peerage cites a charter which suggests that Anne, wife of
Earl Colban, was Sir Alan Durward's daughter.

Since the above material has turned up, I've consulted with Andrew
B.W. MacEwen, of Maine, the resident expert in all things Scottish.
Mr. MacEwen stated he recently had correspondence with Professor
Duncan regarding the very charter cited as evidence by Scots Peerage
which suggests that Anne, wife of Earl Colban, was the daughter of Sir
Alan Durward. Having obtained and reviewed a full transcript of the
charter (which is privately held), both Mr. MacEwen and Professor
Duncan are convinced that Anne, wife of Earl Colban, was in fact the
daughter of Sir Alan Durward.

This same opinion is held by the historian, Matthew Hammond, who wrote
a recent article on the Durward family entitled "Hostiarii Regis
Scotie: the Durward Famiy in the Thirteenth Century," which appeared
in 2003 on pages 118-138 in the book, The Exercise of Power in
Medieval Scotland, c. 1200-1500, edited by Steve Boardman and Alasdair
Ross. Specifically, on page 133, Mr. Hammond states:

"Colban, earl of Fife, and his wife Anna, probably Alan Durward's
daughter, granted the land of Glensalauch in the Mearns, which they
held of Alan Durward and Alan held of the king, to Magister William
Wishart,...'<<<

and other info

And this
>>>Thus, if Anne, wife of Earl Colban and William de Ferrers, was a
daughter and co-heir of Sir Alan Durward, one would expect to find
parts of Sir Alan Durward's lands subsequently held by Anne's son and
heir, Duncan, Earl of Fife. In fact, that is exactly what the
evidence shows. Two of Sir Alan Durward's significant possessions
included the castle of Coull, Aberdeenshire, and the barony of
Kincardine Oneil, both of which passed to the Earls of Fife.

Elsewhere I note that the following recent two works accept Anne, wife
of Earl Colban, as a Durward, or as the daughter of Sir Alan Durward:

1. Lamont-Brown, Fife in History & Legend (2002): x (identifies Ann,
wife of Colbran, Earl of Fife, as “daughter of Sir Alan Durward.)"

2. McAndrew Scotland’s Historic Heraldry (2006): 37 (pedigree of Earls
of Fife) (identifies Anne, wife of Colban, 8th Earl of Fife, as “Anne
Durward”).

As for Sir Alan Durward, he was a prominent individual in his day. He
held the office of Usher of the King of Scots, and also served as
Justiciar of Scotland, 1243–1251x1252, 1255. His wife was Marjory,
the illegitimate daughter of Alexander II, King of Scots. In 1255 he
was appointed one of the guardians of King Alexander III of Scotland
during the king’s minority. He died as stated above in 1275.

The new Durward connection for William de Ferrers's wife, Anne, gives
this family an illustrious pedigree indeed, as Anne's maternal
grandfather, Alexander II, King of Scots, was descended from the Kings
of Scotland, England, and France, and from many other prominent
medieval personages, such as Isabel de Vermandois and Countess Judith,
the niece of William the Conqueror.<<<

And
>>>For interest's sake, I've copied below a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Anne Durward, Countess of Fife, the
first wife of Sir William de Ferrers:

Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, William Bladen, George &
Nathaniel Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles &
Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, St.Leger Codd, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry
Fleete, Edward Foliot, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Thomas Ligon, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas
Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas
Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage,
William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel
& William Torrey, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Amy Wyllys.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah<<<

here's the links to the current 3 wives. It seems Anne Dispenser needs to be unlinked and then locked with a message/warrning.

mistaken wife 1
Anne le Despenser

actual wife 1
Anna Durward

actual wife 2
Eleanor de Lovaine

I still don't know who Anne Beachamp was. I sent another note. Maybe it was a mistake.

Created profile Sir Maurice Wythe of Portbury

Feel free to argue about it.

Tagging profiles Anne le Despenser and disconnecting her as wife of Sir William de Ferrers of Groby

Disputed origins

Lady Anne de Ferrers & Matilda (or Maud) de Ferrers are seen as children of Sir William de Ferrers of Groby and Anne le Despenser and have been disconnected from both as their children. There are no sources offered. [EH, 18 April 2022]

Is Matilda (or Maud) de Ferrers shown as wife of Thomas Berkeley the same as Matilda (or Maud) de Ferrers ? They share a death date of March 12, 1298.

Copying over a discussion:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/228855?msg=1464142

Was Anne le Despenser really married to Sir William de Ferrers of Groby?

Did he or they really have children -

Maud Ferrers & Lady Anne de Ferrers?

It seems he had one child only - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ferrers,_1st_Baron_Ferrers_of... - by wife Anne Durward, a daughter of Alan Durward and Margery of Scotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Durward

And that https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-162 had a wife, “ Ellen, recently identified as the wife of William Ferrers, 1st Baron Ferrers of Groby (d. 20 March 1324/5).[8]”

See https://media.geni.com/p13/bb/fa/cf/28/5344485e789c839d/tsg_the_earls_of_menteith_murdoch_earl_o_original.pdf?hash=f2685e962e64f7069381ee545c7dac49fcffd10ea83496c0b800dd39bf2725ee.1759474799

The Wikitree profile guy got in touch. He put the link to what was the "hidden text" to the Robinson info on her identity in the profile (I pasted that link above). Also, he said Anne Beauchamp was a mistake, and he corrected it to read Anne Dispenser.

I did some research on the single Maud Ferrers , wife of Thomas Berkeley, and sister of Ann
Matilda (or Maud) de Ferrers

I think someone was trying to this profile, a different husband, but same death and the parents make sense
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-62

The sister who married Thomas Berkeley of that generation was Joan
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-378
even though the Thomas now linked has different date,

I think that Geni Ann profile is just a mistake, it seems to have also been one in Wikitree and since unlinked. She probably shows up in some unsourced tree.
Lady Anne de Ferrers

Did you add the notes in Ann's About tab? It makes is seem as the person wanted to be Anne de Ferrers who died in 1367? who married Edward Despenser?
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-54

Otherwise, I can't find any other matches in the data between the Berkeley, Despenser, Ferrers knots.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-56

I got the last two mixed up Wikit Profile 56 is the Anne, daughter of Anne Dispenser and whoever Ferrers she married, if Anne de Ferrers isn't her married name.

Wiki Profile 54 is the Anne who married Edward Despenser noted in the About comments of Lady Anne de Ferrers profile.

I think that Lady Anne is just a mistake. Nothing personal.

She shows up specifically is disproven relationships.
here as the wife of John de Grey and daughter of William F and Anne Dispenser (not true)
https://gw.geneanet.org/natoab?lang=en&amp;n=de+ferrers&amp;oc=0&am...

Here linked to same 3
https://www.genealogieonline.nl/family-tree-cromer-russell-buck-pra...

and here as the wife of Edward Dispense and 2 sets of parents. (no one seems to know where she goes. I would pick an Anne closest to the profile dates and wipe all else clean before merging..

https://familypedia.fandom.com/wiki/Anne_Ferrers_(Abt_1337-1367)#Sp...

Re: … Wikit Profile 56 is the Anne, daughter of Anne Dispenser and whoever Ferrers she married, if Anne de Ferrers isn't her married name.

Unlike Wikitree, I am going to claim Anne Despenser didn’t have Ferrers children by an unknown/ unknowable person. If such a person shows up, he can always be linked.

Re: Did you add the notes in Ann's About tab? It makes is seem as the person wanted to be Anne de Ferrers who died in 1367? who married Edward Despenser? https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-54

If you click “history” in the “about” tab you should be able to open up a Revisions window, which only reflects back to 2014, I think. The -> link opens it in a separate widow for easier viewing:

https://www.geni.com/revisions/history/profile-21514213?authenticity_token=0GWw%2F6cqjSvFCAkCuwEAdWTaS6WSDdxIkbvZHFlco3A%3D&rh_locale=en-US&tab=about_me

In other words, I entered both comments on separate dates.

The “facts” tab shows the history on the “basics” tab.

Elizabeth le Despenser, Baroness Berkeley is my 12th cousin 10 times removed
Eleanor de Lovaine is my third cousin 20 times removed
Sir Maurice Wythe of Portbury is my 19th great grandfather's wife's third cousin once removed's 2nd husband.
<private> Barns-Graham is my 20th cousin five times removed
Anna Durward is my 10th cousin 13 times removed

The mother of Anne de Ferrers is controversial.

The more recent scholarship is from medievalist John Ravilous, who describes Ellen de Ferrers as the mother of the Ferrers children of William de Ferrers, 1st Baron Ferrers

This was discussed last year at William de Ferrers, 1st Baron Ferrers#/tab/discussion

But his first wife is undisputed as Margaret (or Alice) de Segrave (of uncertain given name), so she’s been re connected as de Ferrer’s first wife.

Anne de Ferrers married Sir Edward le Despenser (son of Hugh Despenser & Eleanor de Clare) and had 5 surviving sons:

  1. Edward le Despenser, K.G.,[1] born 24 March 1336[4] married Elizabeth Burghersh[5]
  2. Hugh le Despenser, Knt., married Alice de Hotham[1]
  3. Thomas le Despenser, Knt. (died without issue)[1]
  4. Henry le Despenser, born about 1343, Bishop of Norwich[1]
  5. Gilbert le Despenser[1]

However, Geni is currently showing many more children. So they be identified and disconnected or re homed.


Disputed children

Unsourced children of Anne de Ferrers & Sir Edward le Despenser - Anne le Despencer Joan le Despencer & Anne le Despencer - were disconnected 18 April 2022.

Disputed Origins

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ferrers-36

Detached William Ferrers as son of William de Ferrers, 1st Baron Ferrers and Margaret (or Alice) de Segrave as he is not named by Richardson and no other reliable source mentions this connection.

Anne de Ferrers
1268 Groby, Leicestershire, England
8 August 1337 Groby, Leicestershire, England

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