Sir Henry Green, Chief Justice of the King's Bench - Disputed origins

I've just has a look at the Greene section on Geni and Sir Henry Greene. It looks as if it was originally copied from:the early Greene family tree in:

George Baker's History of Northampton, Vol I, Page 32, showing Henry as a son of Thomas Boketon. Its available to download on the Internet Archive.

Having said this, I have no idea which source is correct - Baker, or DONB. I'll defer to the experts on this. Obviously Geni should be corrected if necessary. I would say that the Greene family tree in this early period can be difficult and confusing because there were so many intermarriages. I, myself have at least 3 descents from said Sir Henry, which took me a while to figure out.

Tim Donaldson

I'm glad you brought this parentage issue up.

I find the argument in the paper by W S Ellis, you quote above, in The Herald and Genealogist by Nichols, John Gough, 1806-1873 published 1871, particularly compelling.

Everything I find on the Greenes on genealogy sites, like WIki Tree, Ancestry etc seems to be based on the Greene tree produced by Baker. Looks as if copy after copy has propagated through the Web, without much evidence to back it up.

If the earlier Greene tree was drawn up in the visitation of 1618, that's 250 years later than the birth of Sir Henry Green Jnr, so, who supplied the information to the heralds. Was it a senior Greene descendent at the time. Was it from memory, or family papers, was it a vanity project, maybe to claim descent from the Zouche family, was it an honest mistake. Who knows?

An aside - In the 17th C it, apparently was not uncommon for a noble family to claim a more illustrious descent. There's an interesting little book by the 19th C historian J Horace Round (if you haven't already seen it) in which he debunks a number of these descents. I came across it when I was looking at the Feilding (Earl of Denbigh) family, where one of the Earls had claimed, and fabricated, a descent from the Hapsburgs.

Back to the Greenes - I haven't seen anything that shows Alexander de Boketon or any of the Boketons having Greene of Boketon as their original name, nor have I seen any evidence of the later Greenes incorporating Boketon into their name.

I'm a great believer in heraldic evidence. Somebody has put a picture on Sir Henry's profile, which shows various heraldic shields taken from an engraving of his tomb in the Greens Norton Church. The original is in the National Portrait Gallery Collection in London, and is supposed to date from 18th C. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw191482

If you look at the bottom of the 2 engravings, the side shoes a shield which 'quarters' the Greene arms (3 stags) and the Drayton arms (lion rampant) which indicates that the Drayton marriage was the significant one, which the latter parts of the tree bear out. That' would indicate that the Catherine Drayton marriage (on which Sackville's paper casts doubt, without showing evidence) did happen and was a significant one. So Sir Henry could have been married twice, Catherine and Amabillia, or 3 times as Ellis conjectures.

There is more heraldic information of Sir Henry's tomb, which might also be the tomb of Catherine Drayton. There are some other shields, the arms of which I haven't had time to match up to family names, but that might give us further clues.

I can't see any evidence that Sir Henry was the son of Thomas de Boketon, whereas Ellis does show evidence of the Henry of Isham Snr descent. The conjectural tree of Ellis is plausible and goes some way to explaining how there might have been an honest confusion with the Boketon family, given that Thomas de Boketon might have been both a father in law and an uncle to Sir Henry.

I'd think that there is a good case for disconnecting Sir Henry from Thomas de Boketon, and then carefully considering whether there is enough evidence to reconnect him as a son in law and/or a nephew of Thomas de Boketon, as suggested by Ellis.

I will update my UK library card, when I have time, so that I can access DNOB.

Tim D

Just found a comment at the bottom of a Katherine Parr page, which confirms that somebody else was researching the Greenes back in 2018 and arrived at the same conclusion. as Ellis re Greene of Isham:. He laso confirms that the Greenes of Isham married into the family of Thomas de Boketon.

https://tudorqueen6.com/2012/09/24/family-of-queen-katherine-parr-s... :

B. Green Tripp on June 20, 2018 at 2:16 PM said:
You have listed information about the Greene family using contemporary records that are not accurate. I have researched the Greene line for over 10 years reading Latin records, Feet of Fines, IPMs, calendar of Patent Rolls and Close Rolls, etc. What you have written is not backed up by these original records. For example, there is no such person as Sir Thomas Greene (b. 1292) son of Thomas de Greene Lord of Boughton/Buckton. The early Greenes were not from Norwich but more likely Yorkshire. The beginning of records for the Greene line in Northants doesn’t start until the Greenes married into the family of Thomas de Boketon and his wife Johanna, Lord and Lady of Boughton about 1303. A Northamptonshire Fine of Edward III shows a Henry Green, Jr. of Isham and a Henry Green, Sr. of Isham as contemporaries of Sir Thomas de Boketon and his wife Jane who sold the Boughton Manor to Henry Greene, Jr. of Isham in 1341. The purchase of the Boughton manor is the beginning of the Greenes in that area as they originated in Isham. I hope you consider doing your own research as it relates to the Parr family.

I've found 2 more sources, one supporting the Isham idea, and the other to do with Greene Heraldry. I'm still digesting them, so before I loose track I'm adding notes as I go along:

1. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Greene-2059

A lengthy profile of Sir Henry, and thoroughly researched.You can read it on the link but I've pasted an extract here which supports the Isham hypothesis:

'Sir Thomas de Boughton and Joan his wife (not Lucy) sold the reversion of the manor to Henry Green of Isham, junior,” further it provides the same “Henry Green was knighted in 1354 and in 1361 was appointed chief justice of the King's Bench, from which he was removed in 1365”, assuring us that it is the same Henry Greene.

These details are supported within the Charter record. It clearly implies that Henry Green was the son of a Henry Green of Isham and that Henry Green, junior, the buyer, was not related to Sir Thomas de Boughton and his wife, Joan. See also a discussion on the Boughton estates in The Victoria History of Northampton.[5]

Sir Henry Greene of Isham was a wealthy wool merchant and is discussed in "A History of the County of Northampton", Volume 4.[6].'

2. This second source, deals with Greene heraldry rather than the Isham question.

Thomas Willement1834, A Roll of Arms of the Reign of Richard II

It shows that the sons, Thomas and Henry took different arms. Thomas inherited the familiar 3 stags trippant, while Thomas, as a younger son, adopted a cross engrailed gules, basically a cross whose edges have curved indents. I've not traced the origin of this one yet. His descendants later abandoned these, after the asssesion of Henry IV (as you know he had Henry executed for his support of Richard II). Instead they adopted the maternal arms i.e. that of Maudit. Best way to describe them is a shield with a checker board inside. I've checked, and it is the arms of the Warminster Maudits, which is the branch to which Matilda/Maud belonged.

I note that Thomas was married at least twice. (1) Amabilia and (2)
Katherine. Looking at marriage dates given I see that he was only married to Amabilia for 4 years. She would have died early (assuming the marriage ended through death). He was married to Katherine for 25 years. Hence the tomb with her and not Amabilia.

The case is getting stronger for revising the earlier part of the tree!.

To summarise the discussion above:

(1) We can find no reliable sources for the claim that Henry was a son of Thomas Boketon, of Northants.

(2) The claim that Henry was a son of Thomas was made in Baker's History of Northampton, Vol I, Page 32, This has been shown to be false
by W.S. Ellis, writing in the Herald and the Genealogist 1870 Vol 6 PPs 254 260

(3) Ellis goes on to quote original sources of the time that establish Henry as the son of Henry Green of Isham, a wool merchant, also of Northants at that time, but whose family originated somewhere other than Northants.

He also shows that Henry had 2 marriages. (1) Amabillia m. 1344 by whom he had one son Henry, and (2) Katherine Drayton m c.1344, who had a son Thomas. The dates indicate that the marriage to Amabillia was short lived. We could speculate that she died in childbirth, but we have no evidence. There is also very plausible speculation by Ellis that Henry may be been connected to the Boketon family but not directly to Thomas. Unfortunately we have no evidence.

(4) Henry's marriage to Katherine is remembered by a tomb in the original church at Greene' Norton. An 18th C engraving, held in the National Portrait gallery in London, is all that remains, but it does show one of the emblems of the Drayton family quartered with the Green 3 bucks trippant.

(5) More contemporary sources have been corrected to state that Henry was the son of Henry of Isham, including VCH and ONDB. There is also a detailed profile of Henry on Wikitree which supports this.

How do we correct on Geni? If Henry can be disconnected from Thomas Boketon, I can add Thomas of Isham as his father, but I'm unable to do this because Henry has a master profile and it is locked. Presumably need a curator. Can anyone help with disconnection please?

Good work, folks.

This is showing the same research that I have had for a while. It is good to see others fixing errors in previous research. I agree with Tink. Good work