Widukind - Widukinds wife

Started by Anette Guldager Boye on Friday, March 24, 2023
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Something is not adding up here. Widukind is mentioned as having as wife the sister or daughter of Sigfred king of the Danes. here Geva is mentioned as a Danish princess but is mentioned as having a Norwegian father. Vestfold was under the control of the Danish king in the Viking age but his name was Sigfred ! and then Godfred, his son.

1. SIGEFRID [Sigurd] ([750]-798). First "King of Haithabu". The Annales Fuldenses record that "Sigifridi regis Danorum" sent "Halbdani…cum sociis suis" as missi to a council held by Charles I King of the Franks at "Lippia"[9]. One child:

a) ONUND ([790]-).

2. HARALD ([750]-killed in battle in the Irish Sea 804). Second "King of Haithabu". m IMHILD, daughter of WARNECHIN Graf von Engern & his wife Kunhilde von Rügen. Three children:

a) HALFDAN (-killed in battle Walcheren 810). Third "King of Haithabu".
b) HARALD ([775/80]-murdered Haithabu 804). Fourth "King of Haithabu".
c) HOLGER ([780]-807). Danish.

3. HALFDAN Mildi ([750]-802, bur Borro). King of Vestfold.

4. GEVA ([755]-). This marriage is shown in Europäische Stammtafeln[10] but the primary source on which it is based has not been identified. m ([775]) WIDUKIND Saxon Duke, son of --- (-7 Jan 810). http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/DENMARK.htm#GevaMWidukindSaxonydied810

Sigefrid, King of Denmark

Am I understanding correctly, Anette - you're actually objecting to Geva's father: Eystein «Fret/Fjert» Halfdansson ?

Will disconnect.

Myrna's inactive - I'll do the same for King Harold - pending objections from Harald.

Primary sources appear to be lacking, even for this.

Aber Hallo, hier passt noch mehr nicht zusammen. Die Person Widukind + < 799 – 807 , ist mehrheitlich mythenhaft , nur wenig ist aus seinem Leben bekannt, So z.B. fehlt , seine Herkunft und der Zeitraum nach seiner Christianisierung , geographisch darf sein Gau westlich der Porta Westfalica / Wesergebirge / Wiehengebirge gelegen sein. Wo aber starb er ( siehe Vita Liudgeri : hier war es der Schwager König Karls Gerold + ca. 799 ( Reichsfahnenträger ) der ihn im Kampf erschlug , wo wurde er bestattet ? , welches Erbe hat er hinterlassen ? ). Fragen über Fragen , ebenso stellt sich die Frage zu Widukinds Ehe ( um 783 )mit Geva / Gheua von Haithabu / Dänemark ( Braunschweiger Reimchronik ) und den Nachkommen Wiprecht , Hasela und NNNN . Geva war nach den Annales Fuldensis , die Tochter / Schwester eines Sigfred /Sigurd der als 1. König von Haithabu / Dänemark gilt , (*um 750, + 798. „Sigifridi regis Danorum“ ) , der„Halfdan“ als Gesandter zu König Karl bei „Lippia“ entsandte. Ferner wird In den Reichsannalen Annales regni Francorum zum Jahr 777 erwähnt , dass Widukind als einziger der sächsische Großen , nicht am Reichstag in Paderborn erschien, sondern beim dänischen König Sigfred um Asyl bat .Am dänischen Hof scheint er seine Frau kenngelernt zu haben
Siegfried I. ist in vielen Dingen fraglich , gilt als mythisch
Der ab dem Jahr 772 ( Zerstörung der Irminsul ) begonnene Krieg zwischen Franken und Sachsen , fand im Jahr 778 ( wohl weil Widukind wieder in Westfalen war ) bis 785 seine wechselnden Höhepunkte.
Im Bardengau unterwarfen sich Widukind und sein Schwager Albion ( vielleicht auch Schwiegersohn ) den Franken , die mit der Taufe in Attigny 785 endete.Wie weit die fränkischen Zugeständnisse gingen sind weitgehend unbekannt ( siehe aber die vielen Orte in Süddeutschland beginnend oder endend mit " Sachsen ", in diesen wurde viele der unterlegenden ( meist Edelleute ) als Geiseln deportiert )
Fakt ist Widukind war Sachse und hatte keine Verbindung zu Norwegen ( siehe dänisch – norwegische Beziehung der Zeit ).
Friedrich Jansen von dem Busch

friedrich Wilhelm Jansen von den Busch

How can a person be both mythical and authentic at the same time, think you need to ponder hard on that.

It’s impossible to understand what is going on here.

What research is being done?

What is the agenda?

Hedeby / Haithabu was the biggest city at that time and a power center.

The different tribes of Saxons clashed with the Franks.

As usual, the indigenous people were subdued and sometimes massacred. Their history, in this case Saxon and Nordic history and family ties were unwanted. Active measures were taken by the occupiers to wash out their past.

Of course this active erazing of history and sources makes it more difficult for recent researchers. But one can not only rely on the winner and the occupant’s history.

This history concerns us all and is very important for our understanding of our past.

We have a collective obligation to share research, debate and not dictate. Invite not exclude. Otherwise we obscure and oppress.

Halfdan Milde was originally a straight quote from Snorre's Ynglingesoga.

His profile seems to have gathered a fair bit of fluff (wives and children) since I looked at it last.

So the current project is to prove there are no proven existing lines from Widukind? https://www.geni.com/projects/No-Descents-From-Widukind/48471

Are there any other agendas?

I have no agenda except creating a tree that meets the genealogical and historical standard for proof. That's my job as a Curator. I didn't even start the Discussion. I'm very happy for people to provide primary proofs and we'll adjust accordingly.

Fondly held mytholgies are not sufficient reason to connect profiles on a collective genealogical tree. That is something you do on your personal genealogy tree if you want to.
This is an endlessly circular debate that I'm not engaging in again. Geni has made its position clear on the matter, and you need to take it up with Mike Stangel if you disagree with that position, not engage in personalised nastiness about it.

Eystein «Fret/Fjert» Halfdansson is your 34th great grandfather.
Halfdan "the Mild", king of Romerike and Vestfold is your 33rd great grandfather.

Google tranlate of friedrich Wilhelm Jansen von den Busch 's post as it contains interesting observations:
But hey, there's more that doesn't fit together here. The person Widukind + < 799 - 807 is mostly mythical, only little is known about his life, so e.g. his origin and the period after his Christianization is missing, geographically his district may be located west of the Porta Westfalica / Wesergebirge / Wiehengebirge. But where did he die? Questions upon questions, as well as the question about Widukind's marriage (around 783) with Geva/Gheua von Haithabu/Denmark (Brunswick rhyming chronicle) and the descendants Wiprecht, Hasela and NNNN. According to the Annales Fuldensis, Geva was the daughter/sister of a Sigfred/Sigurd who is considered the 1st king of Haithabu/Denmark (*around 750, + 798. "Sigifridi regis Danorum"), the "Halfdan" as envoy to King Karl sent to "Lippia". It is also mentioned in the imperial annals Annales regni Francorum for the year 777 that Widukind was the only one of the Saxon greats who did not appear at the Reichstag in Paderborn, but asked for asylum with the Danish king Sigfred. He seems to have met his wife at the Danish court
Siegfried I. is questionable in many things, is considered mythical
The war between Franconia and Saxony, which began in 772 (destruction of the Irminsul), reached its changing peaks in the year 778 (probably because Widukind was back in Westphalia) to 785.
In Bardengau, Widukind and his brother-in-law Albion (perhaps also son-in-law) submitted to the Franks, which ended with the baptism in Attigny in 785. How far the Frankish concessions went is largely unknown (but see the many places in southern Germany beginning or ending with "Saxony") , in these many of the defeated (mostly noblemen) were deported as hostages)
Fact is Widukind was Saxon and had no connection with Norway (see Danish–Norwegian relationship of the time).

Hallo Ulf ,
Sie haben recht ,meine Version mythisch , soll von einem Mythos ausgehen, die mit Mythen und Sagen verbundenen Personen darstellt .
Dann formuliere ich es doch anders.
Sigfred von Dänemark wird erstmals 777 erwähnt ( siehe Annales regni Francorum zum Jahr 777 ). Geva wird nur im Deutschen als Tochter Sigfreds dargestellt. Selbst die Beziehung zu Gudfred ( seinem angeblichen Sohn ) ist nichts bekannt ( außer das er sein Nachfolger wurde ).Gudfred hatte einen Neffen Sigfred , da Kinder mehrheitlich den Namen des Großvaters tragen, nimmt man deshalb an , dass König Sigfred der Vater Gudfreds ist.König Sigfred Regierungszeit scheint bis zum Jahr 804 gedauert zu haben. Auch sie gibt Anlass zur Spekulation , hatte er Mitregenten , woher stammten sie ? Über Sigfreds Herkunft bestehen unterschiedliche Theorien. Eine folgt der Überlieferung der isländischen Sagas, wonach Sigfred schwedischer Herkunft war, Die andere These folgt dem Hinweis, wonach Sigfred I. nicht schwedischer, sondern dänischer Herkunft und damit vermutlich ein Nachkomme von König Ongendus / Agantyr + > 737 ( siehe die Lebensbeschreibung des Heiligen Willibrord , Bischof von Utrecht ) war .Mit Sigfred * ca. 750 + 798 – 804 , als Sohn Ongendus mag die Serie der authentischen Könige von Haithabu / Dänemark beginnen.

Hello Ulf,You are right, my version mythic is supposed to be based on a myth depicting people associated with myths and legends.
Then I'll phrase it differently.
Sigfred of Denmark is first mentioned in 777 (see Annales regni Francorum on the year 777). Geva is only represented in German as the daughter of Sigfred. Even the relationship to Gudfred (his alleged son) is not known (except that he was his successor). Gudfred had a nephew Sigfred, since most children bear the grandfather's name, it is assumed that King Sigfred is Gudfred's father. King Sigfred's reign seems to have lasted until the year 804. It also gives cause for speculation, did he have co-rulers, where did they come from? There are different theories about Sigfred's origins. One follows the tradition of the Icelandic sagas, according to which Sigfred was of Swedish origin, The other thesis follows the indication that Sigfred I was not of Swedish but Danish origin and thus presumably a descendant of King Ongendus / Agantyr + > 737 ( see the biography of the saint Willibrord, Bishop of Utrecht) was. With Sigfred * ca. 750 + 798 – 804, as Ongendu's son, the series of authentic kings of Haithabu / Denmark may begin.

I uploaded a paper about the political intentions of Snorri Sturluson to the Sagas project: THE FUNCTION OF ‘YNGLINGA SAGA’ IN HEIMSKRINGLA by Birgit Sawyer -https://media.geni.com/p14/8c/78/82/d1/53444862e3c5a04c/function_of_tghe_ynglinga_saga_original.pdf?hash=96e722713b7aad5341a269c73338ea6c2b1b0f61d13a5a52241e6fe90a114ba4.1768895999
It may or may not be useful.

The gist is this:

In Snorri’s version the Ynglings first became Norwegian kings in Vestfold, but according to
Historia Norwegiae, their original base was in Opland (in montanis), not on the coast, and in
Nóregs Konungatal (from c. 1190), based on information from Sæmund, they first ruled an unnamed realm in the east that Harald Fairhair inherited from his father, together with a WestNorwegian realm (Sogn) that he inherited from his maternal grandfather. With the help of Af Upplendinga konungum (preserved in Hauksbók from c. 1300, but probably much older), Claus Krag has traced the gradual transfer of the Ynglings' origin from the east of Norway south to Vestfold, a transfer that is fully developed in Hkr. These changes in the Yngling tradition reflect contemporary developments in Norway.

Danish hegemony
At least from the end of the 8th century the Danes had hegemony over southern Norway. In
Annales Francorum under the year 813 we read that when Charlemagne summoned rulers
for peace negotiations in Aachen, sixteen Danish magnates came, but not their kings, who
were occupied elsewhere: “The kings themselves at this time were not at home but had
marched with an army toward Westarfold [- - -], whose princes and people refused to submit
to them.” On that occasion the kings succeeded in suppressing the revolt and regained their
control of Vestfold, but we do not know for how long; from the middle of the 9th to the
middle of the 10th century Denmark underwent a period of unrest, characterized by internal
struggles for power, but with Harald Gormsson (“Bluetooth”) the Danish hegemony over
Scandinavia was again ensured, and Norway was under Danish – indirect – rule from c. 950
during the reigns of Harald, Sven Forkbeard, and Knud the Great.

The Danish hegemony (through Norwegian earls) later changed for a more direct control; after Olav Haraldsson’s death (in Stiklestad 1030), Knud placed his son Sven (Alfivason) as king of Norway, but after only a couple of years Sven was driven out of the country, when Olav’s son Magnus had been brought back from his exile. Danish kings continued, however, to maintain their claims to parts of Norway, especially Viken (the area around the Oslo fjord).
When the first Scandinavian archbishopric was established in Lund in 1104, Danish influence increased, since both the Norwegian and the Swedish churches were subordinate to the Danish archbishops. Fifty years later (1153/54), Norway escaped Lund's primacy with its own archbishopric established in Nidaros, but already in the 1160´s, the magnate Erling Skakke had to pay homage to the Danish king Valdemar I as his earl of Viken. Erling Skakke´s submission toValdemar I must have been a serious setback, but Norwegian independence of Danish control was maintained in different ways. It was in this situation that the need for a special genealogy of Norwegian kings became acute. In order to refute Danish claims to old rights in Norway, especially in Vestfold, the Norwegian genealogy began in the east: Svitjod (Sweden), proving that the Norwegian kings had their own proud lineage (during pagan times) from the important centre of Uppsala. Vestfold as the starting point for the formation of Norway was thus directed against Danish claims.
It is in this world of ideas that sagas about the Ynglings, their "genealogy" and Swedish origin, become of great immediate interest, and a poem about them is presented by Snorri to prove that Norwegian kings had long established claims to Vestfold. In the sagas, Harald Fairhair is thus made a king over Vestfold, despite the fact that his "unification" had its origin in Sogn and only comprised western Norway.

Anette Guldager Boye do you think Geva is the one you created here Geva ?

Then your Sigefrid, King of Denmark is Sigefrid, King of Denmark
and this Godfredus on your line is this one Gudrød Halvdansson «the Hunter» Veidekonge on ours?

Oh dear, I think we have a source puzzle to untangle here - and possibly one with no way to solve contradicting sources.

Anette references this article https://www.medieval.eu/sigfred-and-godfred-804-810-ferocious-vikin... which is of some interest.

By default, if we're not sure, I recommend source-tagging profiles (Gudrød Halfdansson, {Ynglingesoga}) and not merging them - instead making a note in the profile that "it seems likely that the writer who wrote <source a> is thinking of <other profile link> in <source b>" (and vice versa).

There are quite a few sagas that have obvious links between them that, if we link them all, we get a tree that requires a significant amount of time travel. We shoudn't do that.

'Everything, everywhere all the time"? :-)

My gut tells me that we're going to have isolate and protect at least part of these trees as potentially legendary, and not historically provable. That would solve the problem of duplication.

Closest Primary Sources so far - adhoc list, just to have them in one place:

In Charlemagne's Court:

  • Peter of Pisa (744 – 799) An Italian grammarian, deacon and poet in the court of Charlemagne in the Early Middle Ages
  • Paulus, Diaconus (c. 720s – 13 April in 796-9) A Benedictine monk, scribe, and historian of the Lombards in the court of Charlemagne

"Known to the court of Charlemagne from 782, when Sigfrid was harbouring both the Saxon rebel Widukind and numerous other fugitives, this Danish king later came to feature in a couple of poems as a pompous or grandstanding (pompifer) man, who waved his spectre over a godless and accursed kingdom and whose comeuppance was secure: in the end, they prophesied, Sigfred was bound to arrive at court with his hands tied behind his back. Neither Thor nor Odin (Thonar et Waten) would help him, they claimed. These two sniggering poems were written sometime between 783 and 787 by Peter of Pisa (AD 744 – 799) and Paul the Deacon (AD 720 – 799) . Characterised as occasional poems, their main objective was to stage the authors’ civilised superiority towards this northern king, whom they compare to a wild and hairy “beast”. As an undercurrent, we nevertheless get the impression that Sigfred was regarded as a significant opponent. During the Saxon wars he seems to have aided and abetted his southern neighbours against Charlemagne. Why else write derogatory and defamatory poetry about him? The Carolingians must have been wary of Sigfred; as they came to be of his son(?) Godfred."https://www.medieval.eu/sigfred-and-godfred-804-810-ferocious-vikin...

In the Scandinavian Sagas

  • Snorri Sturluson Snorri Sturluson (1179 – 23 September 1241) an Icelandic historian, poet, and politician, author of the Heimskringla, a history of the Norwegian kings that begins with legendary material in Ynglinga saga
  • Thjódólf of Hvinir (late 9th–early 10th c. AD) A Norwegian skald of king Harald Fairhair. Author of Ynglingatal upon which Snorri (above) draws.

Also in Charlemagne's court:

  • Einhard (c. 775 – 14 March 840) A Frankish scholar and courtier of Charlemagne. Wrote a biography of Charlemagne, the Vita Karoli Magni. "“Charles final war was the one taken up against the Northmen, who are called Danes. First, they had operated as pirates, but then they raided the coasts of Gaul and Germany with larger fleets. Their king, Godfred, was so filled with vain ambition, that he wowed to take control of all Germany. Indeed, he already thought of Frisia and Saxony as his own provinces and had [first] brought the Abodrites, who were his neighbours, under his power and [then] made them pay tribute to him. He even bragged that he would soon come to Aachen, where King [Charles] held court, with a vast army. Some stock was put on his boast, although it was idle, for it was believed that he was about to start something like this, but was suddenly stopped by death. For he was murdered by one of his own attendants and, thus, both his life and the war he had begun came to a sudden end at the same time.”From: The Life of Charlemagne by Einhard, ch. 14, 9 p. 24. In: Charlemagne’s Courtier. Transl. By Paul Edward Dutton. Broadview Press 1998.

and

  • The Annales Fuldenses (possibly Einhard), cited by Cawley - East Frankish chronicles that cover independently the period from the last years of Louis the Pious (died 840) to shortly after the end of effective Carolingian rule in East Francia with the accession of the child-king, Louis III, in 900. Throughout this period they are a near contemporary record of the events they describe and a primary source for Carolingian historiography. SIGEFRID [Sigurd] ([750]-798). First "King of Haithabu". The Annales Fuldenses record that "Sigifridi regis Danorum" sent "Halbdani…cum sociis suis" as missi to a council held by Charles I King of the Franks at "Lippia" Annales Fuldenses 782, MGH SS I, p. 349.
  • Adam of Bremen (Before 1050 – 12 October 1081/1085) A German medieval chronicler, famous for his chronicle Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum, cited by Cawley as saying "“it is uncertain how many kings reigned in Denmark during this period

So, the first pivotal historical figure in this Discussion is Sigurd

On Geni:
Sigefrid, King of Denmark -Sigurd, first King of Haithabu
Sigefrid, King of Denmark - Sigfred, King of Denmark

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