HaRav Yitzhak Ben Shmuel Jaffe (de Vitry), R"I HaZaken of Dampierre - Partially duplicate tree

In my opinion, more sourcing of the ר"י הזקן Halevi tree is necessary before doing anything further.

I agree.

There's some strange stuff in both trees with people recorded as over 100 years old. Not impossible, but improbable.

I am not sure about the details in my tree, as i had merged matches in my early stages of geneiolgy, and haven't gone back to fix all the issues and make sure they are all based of reliable sources.
However, in terms of this specific issue, I have looked a bit into it.

Rav Yitzchak ben Shmuel is the same person as R"y Hazaken. he was rav yitchak ben shmuel and known as the author of tosfos r"y hazaken,

Not sure if there is a source for the name Jaffe (I haven't seen, but also haven't looked.

But the issue of his coming from Dampierre, or that being connected to how he was referred to, is a bit of an issue.

In a preface to the sefer "machazor Vitri" written by R Horwitz, he has a listing of all the rishonim that are quoted in the sefe. He lists rav yitzchak ben shmuel (R"y hazaken) and rav yitzchak ben avraham from dampierre as two sepate people.

In other words, Rav Yitzchak from Dampierre is the son of Avraham and not the Rav Yitzchak we are discussing.
However he does bring once source in the teshuvas harambam referrinbg to rav yitzchak ben shmuel from dampierre.

It could be that indeed the r"y hazaken was from dampierre but the machzor vitri who was a grandfather, doesn't refer to him as "from Dampierre" while the only source given is the rambam who lived farther away, and perhaps confused the two rav yitzchaks.

That is what i see.

Hi Private User, do you have a source for the R"I being the father of ? Is that in Machzor Vitry?

Also, is there a source for the R"I being a Levi?

Sorry, in the above, the child in question is Comitessa de Vitry

BTW, Private User there's a *third* profile marked as being the "R"I" - Yehuda ben Yom Tov of Falaise, R"I haZaken - The Elder - which is clearly inaccurate, but whose descendant tree contains duplicates of the Comitessa tree.

Private User The name R"I should not be applied to Yehuda ben Yom Tov of Falaise, R"I haZaken - The Elder Using the term 'HaZaken' I don't mind since the grandson was also a Yehuda.

I didn't see the Comitessa duplicates. Which are they?

The Yehuda ben Yom Tov of Falaise, R"I haZaken - The Elder descendant tree has its problems as well: Sir Leon's grandson Avraham Ben Matityahu Ashkenazi, of Treves (Troyes) is shown marrying another of Sir Leon's daughters. I do not believe this is correct. My sources show that Avraham Ben Matityahu Ashkenazi, of Treves (Troyes) is the grandson of Yehuda ben Yitzhak Treves, Sir Leon of Paris and we just don't know who his wife was; there is no evidence I know of that his wife was wife, Avraham Ashkenazi Treves another daughter of Yehuda ben Yitzhak Treves, Sir Leon of Paris.

Comitessa de Vitry and
Comitessa de Vitry

Not sure what sources exist for the upper parts of the tree.

Further down, Hayyim / Vivant le Miauz is in primary sources for the population of Paris. His wife was a doctor. A child, Florion, lived with them. However, the association with Contesse le'Estoile may be problemattic - she's also in the same source, but I don't see anything that associates the two families.

Btw, this document (https://hal.science/hal-03331538/document) is a superb collation of all of the primary sources from France in the Middle Ages (documents in the French archive, plus tombstones and other engravings - not rabbinic sources).

More duplicates in the tree!

Contesse De L'estoile (and her husband and son) are the same as Contesse De L'estoile

Judging from the curator note on the 2nd profile, others have the same doubt about her parentry.

Thanks for the detail. Now I see what you mean. I don't have any evidence that Wife R"I Hazaken is the daughter of Yehuda de Falaise I have her as an unnamed person who is married to both Rabbi Yitzhak ben Meir Klonymus, Ribam [Rashi Gd.son] and Yehuda ben Yom Tov of Falaise, R"I haZaken - The Elder From the latter union there are six offspring, the three shown on the profile plus three others. One of the three not shown on GENI is a daughter who is the wife of the R"I, and from this union come Elkhanan HaKadosh Tosaphist Joffe of Dampierre, The Martyr, הי״ד and Shmuel Jaffe de Dampierre

I see no evidence that the line beginning with Comitessa de Vitry and Comitessa de Vitry is a daughter of the R"I, although I understand that you have primary sources for the Hayyim and Florian, and an unconnected Contesse L'Estoile. What is being shown on GENI could just be conjecture, which in my opinion should remain separate from the R"I tree until further confirmed.

Thanks for this excellent source of French data. I will keep this for future reference.

If I had the energy, I'd do a Geni project just for that source. Quite a few of the people listed in her paper can be identified (rabbis etc). Very useful.

In the source you offered there is the mention of a Rabbi Yehiel called Vives of Meaux. Do you think this is the same person as Vivant de Miauz ?

Vivant is the literal translation into medieval French of Chaim (Hayyim).

I think Yehiel would be a different name.

Oh wait. Yehiel = "may he live". Chaim = "life".

It's the same person, isn't it?

In which case as well, there's a (now lost) tombstone for Rabbi Meir, son of the saintly R Yehiel, as well as stones of two other children where the names have broken off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yechiel_of_Paris

- father-in-law of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_ben_Joseph_of_Corbeil

Vivant is recorded in Paris in 1292.

Rabbi Yehiel of Paris supposedly died in Acre in 1268 - although there's the question of that tombstone found in Paris from the early 1300s.

They could well be the same person, but I think we need expert advise.

I suppose one question for the expert is whether Miauz is the same as Meaux. Based on the information on p. 29 on the Vivant de Miauz line they are the same.

That's the same, just alternate spelling. Meldensis in Latin.

Still hard to determine if they're the same person.

Rabbi Yehiel clearly did move to Haifa, since he established a major school there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Academy_of_Paris). However, that tombstone (plus existing legends that he returned to France) are intriguing.

I have figured out the whole "Asher / Yehiel" thing.

There's a separate family from Cologne with similar names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asher_ben_Jehiel

In discussing Yehiel of Paris, Fellous refers to this work (which is also mentioned in the Wikipedia article about Yehiel of Paris): EMANUEL Simha, 2008, «" ר' יחיאל מפריס: תולדותיו וזיקתו לארץ ישראל - », שלם / Shalem (in Hebrew). Joseph hacker (ed), Jerusalem: Yad Ben Zvi. 8 : 86–99. This could help answer the matter of the burial in Paris.

Did you find GENI profiles for either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_ben_Joseph_of_Corbeil or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehiel_of_Paris?

TIA

I didn't find profiles for either. Spelling may be a factor.