Grizel Rattray - Parents of Grizel?

cf Sir John Rattray, 11th of that Ilk and Elizabeth Kennedy

Private User the revisions say "Grizel Rattray was disconnected from her parents Sir John Rattray, 11th of that Ilk and Elizabeth Kennedy and sibling John Rattray by Neil."28 Sep 2021 at 6:33 PM · undo

Can you think back to this and your reasons?

I'm undoing, pending your reasons.

I think this may be it:
On 24 May 1517 Grizel Rattray had a precept of sasine for one half of the barony of Rattray, and other lands located in the sheriffdom of Perth, by virtue of an act made on the field of Flodden in Northumberland by the deceased James IV, King of Scots. On the same date her sister Elizabeth Rattray had a precept of sasine for the other half. RSRS 1513-22, p. 594

elizabeth rattray de eadem sorori predicte grizelle apud edinburugh die et anno per dispensatium et actum predictos
ie elizabeth rattray of the same sister of the aforesaid Grizelle at Edinburgh the day and year by the aforesaid dispensation and act

cf Elizabeth Rattray

But you created the profile for Elizabeth, so what made you assume she was the daughter of John Rattray, younger of that Ilk and not Sir John Rattray, 11th of that Ilk

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_Blairgowrie/l2Y...

As are we all. Do come and help figure it out. Neil is an excellent scholar with an eye for detail - he's definitely going to be crucial to what we decide.

Relevant Sources:
III. JOHN, third Earl of Atholl, born 6 October 1507,7 succeeded his father. He was famous for his great hospitality and his magnificent way of living, more like a sovereign prince than a subject.8 He died about November 1542, of sickness contracted while with the King's army, before the battle of Solway.9 He married, first, Grizel, (laughter of Sir John Rattray of that Ilk ; 10 secondly, Jean or Janet, daughter of John, sixth Lord Forbes.11 She was married to him less than six months before his death, and on that ground her service of terce was refused.12

• The Scots peerage :by Paul, James Balfour, Sir, 1846-1931.Publication date 1904-1914 https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun01pauluoft/page/467/mod...:

John Stewart, 3rd Earl of Atholl

John Rattray *1479 Married Margaret Abercrombie. Died soldiering in Holland, leaving 2 daughters who were forcibly surrendered to the Earl of Atholl for upbringing and marriage into his family.
Grizel Rattray married John Stewart, 3rd Earl of Atholl, who murdered Patrick for the Rattray lands.
Patrick Rattray, 12th Laird of Kinballoch. Driven from Rattray Castle, he settled at KInballoch and began building Craighall. In 1553 he was murdered in his own chapel by his brother-in-law, the 3rd Earl of Atholl, who coveted Rattrau lands.
Sylvester Rattray of Craighall. In spite of hindrances from the Atholls, he eventually was served heir to his father and brither to the barony of Craighall and Kinballocxh. Married Marjorie d/o 3rd Lord Gray. Died 1554.

• Dawn Stapylton-Adkins. James Rattray & His Descendants in South Africa 1822-1992, self-published, Cape Town, 1992

Eustace Rattray > acquitted of treason > John > John > Patrick d1456 > Sylvester fl 1463 x Alison Hepburn > Sir John fl1506 x Elizabeth Kennedy >

• John - married, officer in Dutch army, died in Holland during father's lifetime; no issue
• Patrick > succeeded Sir John
• Sylvester
• Grissel - only daughter became Countess of John Stewart, 3rd Earl of Athole

abstract from a copy MS:
'Sir John was killed at Flodden (1513) with King James IV. His eldest son called John had 2 daughters, but he died before his father without heirs male. Always [? SD] Sir John Ratrrsay married for his second marriage Dam Elizabeth Kennadie, who bar to him 2 sons, the one called Patrick, the other called Sylvester. Sir John being killed at Flodden, the Earl of Athol thought himself entitled to an equal portion of the estates of Rattray in right of his Countess, and this claim being resisted by his brothers in law, the Earl resolved to attain his end by force.'

Arraying a body of his clansmen, he marched down on the castle of Rattray with the intention of carrying it by assault. Patrick, finding his few retainers unable to defend the place, made a timely retreat.
The Earl broke into the old fortalice, ransacked and seized all the family documents on which he could lay his hands. Also he took the two daughters and married upon his son the oldest, called Dam Grissell, and the other upon Sir James Stewart of Attemadies in the North; and so possessed himself of the Estate of Rattray, and sundrie other lands belonging to that family.
This Dam Grissell had many children. Her son, John, was Chancellor of Scotland, and she had many daughters married to many honourable families.

Dam Kennedie, for her and Sir Johns’ sons, pleaded for the ryts of Rattray, but they were overpowered by the Earl of Athol - the eldest - Patrick - being killed by the Leslies of Kinrorie (emissaries, no doubt, of the Earl of Athol)... Sylvester, the other son, got a warrant under the king’s great seal.. When he was served heir to his brother & father, but the Earl of Athol, being Chancellor, made out of the way the Charter of Sylvester Rattray, who could not recover his right…
…in 1533 Sylvester petitioned the king…narrated that for 12 years .. he had been hindered by Earl of Athol who slew his brother Patrick Rattray in the chapel of his house at Glenballoch… granted 17 Oct 1533.. Amicable arrangement… Grizella, Countess of Athol, granted a precept in favour of Sylvester R, as heir of Patrick R, his brother, in the lands of Braidwalls and other parts of Rattray.”
Sylvester died in 1554 .. leaving David, heir and William. David d 1613> George & Sylvester.

• The History of Blairgowrie by John RA MacDonald, Published 1899 -pp 216-18 in Chapter ' Rattray of Rattray and Craighall https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_Blairgowrie/l2Y...

Okay - that had to be copied by hand, and there will be errors and typos - hopefully none to the content. Please consult link for the 1899 text. [SD]

This, I think, is what that gives us

Sir John fl1506 - d at Flodden 1513
x NN

• John - married, officer in Dutch army, died in Holland during father's lifetime; no issue
  

xx Elizabeth Kennedy

• Patrick d c 1521 > succeeded Sir John > escapes Castle Rattray leaving daughters to Earl of Athol & is killed in the chapel of his house at Glenballoch
  

• Dam Grissell x son of Sir John Stewart 3rd of Athole
  

• Many children including John, Chancellor of Scotland
  

• NN dau x Sir James Stewart of Attemadies in the North
  

• Sylvester d 1554
  

• David d1613
  
• William
  

• Countess Grissel - only daughter x Sir John Stewart 3rd of Athole

That could mean that the sisters in Neil's precepts of 1517, could be the daughters of Patrick prior to their abandonment to the mercies of their Aunt Grisell's husband, the Earl of Athol.

Patrick d c 1521 >escapes Castle Rattray leaving daughters to Earl of Athol

• Dam Grissell x son of Sir John Stewart 3rd of Athole (many kids incl Chanc. John)
  
• NN dau [Elizabeth?] x Sir James Stewart of Attemadies in the North

Except, I have the following configuration for Sir John:

Sir John Rattray, 11th of that Ilk (- 1513 at Battle of Flodden) 11th Laird
x Elizabeth d/o James, 2nd Lord Kennedy

• John
  
• Grisel
  

xx Matilda Johnstoun.

• Patrick
  
• Sylvester

Matilda seems to come from here:Dawn Stapylton-Adkins. James Rattray & His Descendants in South Africa 1822-1992, self-published, Cape Town, 1992

And - another version of the story here https://bagtownclans.com/index.php/2022/09/21/rattray-vs-stewart-of... has

Sir John
-and a first wife having John, Grisel xJohn Stewart Earl of Athol and another daughter

-and a 2nd wife at 60 with 2 more sons and a daughter - all murdered in their castle in 1516 by JS Earl of Athol, except for son Silvester who tries to claim lands back when he comes of age in 1534

Wikipedia's version:
Silvester Rattray was succeeded by his son, John, who had been knighted in 1488 by James IV of Scotland His eldest son died serving in the Netherlands as a professional soldier but he left another two sons and two daughters. The eldest of the two daughters was Grizel who had married John Stewart, Earl of Atholl and the earl promptly claimed half of the barony of Rattray in her right. The earl also induced his wife's sister, Elizabeth, to try and obtain her share of the Rattray barony. Sir John Rattray's second son, Patrick Rattray, was driven from Rattray Castle in 1516 by the Earl of Atholl and was forced to take refuge in Nether Kinballoch where he built a new house at Craighall. However the Stewart Earl of Atholl murdered him in 1533.

The third son of Sir John Rattray was another Silvester Rattray who succeeded his murdered brother. Due to the Earl of Atholl's continuing threats he petitioned to the king for dispensation to be legally recognised in the courts in Dundee instead of Perth, Scotland|Perth where the Earl of Atholl had great influence and Silvester considered the visit too dangerous.

Silvester Rattray was succeeded by his son, David Rattray of Craighall, who had three sons. The second son was another Silvester Rattray who was Reverend of Persie and became the first minister of Rattray after the Scottish Reformation. The eldest son, George, was murdered in 1592 and so Silvester, the younger son, succeeded to the title.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Rattray

So where, exactly, does Elizabeth Kennedy fit as Sir John's wife and mother of which children? A bit 'copied from an old MS' quoted by* MacDonald, 1899 https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_Blairgowrie/l2Y... may help?

'...Dam Kennedie, for her and Sir Johns’ sons, pleaded for the ryts of Rattray, but they were overpowered by the Earl of Athol - the eldest - Patrick - being killed by the Leslies of Kinrorie (emissaries, no doubt, of the Earl of Athol)... Sylvester, the other son, got a warrant under the king’s great seal.. When he was served heir to his brother & father, but the Earl of Athol, being Chancellor, made out of the way the Charter of Sylvester Rattray, who could not recover his right oyet: “This Silvester atteir with the Laird of Kinmouth assist and obtened by law the lands of Craighall and a 5th part of the barony of Rattray, because lands were provided to the children of Dam Elizabeth Kennadie by the said Sir John, whilk continue with that family til this day.”
…in 1533 Sylvester petitioned the king…narrated that for 12 years .. he had been hindered by Earl of Athol who slew his brother Patrick Rattray in the chapel of his house at Glenballoch… granted 17 Oct 1533.. Amicable arrangement… Grizella, Countess of Athol, granted a precept in favour of Sylvester R, as heir of Patrick R, his brother, in the lands of Braidwalls and other parts of Rattray.'

We know for sure that Elizabeth Kennedy is Sir John's wife in 1479, because Neil has found a contemporary document saying so.

We know that Sir John's soldier son John dies in Holland before his father's death - which puts soldier John's birth at before 1493 - 1483?. This makes it quite likely that he's Elizabeth Kennedy's child, unless she dies very young.

MacDonald in 1899 suggests that an old manuscript has Elizabeth pleading as the mother of Patrick and Silvester in either c1516 (the takeover of the Rattray castlre) or c1521 (the takeover over the Craighall castle and murder of Patrick in his chapel) - but perhaps that's just an assumption on the old manuscript's part, and the writ quoted by the old manuscript, rejecting Silvester's claim further down, is actually doing this by saying that the lands in the hands of Elizabeth Kennedy's children [Countess Grissel & sister Elizabeth?] now both connected to the Earl of Athol) were rightfully given to them by their father, Sir John. That would make Elizabeth the first wife, and Patrick and Silvester the children of the second family -possibly considered usurpers by the first family.

This fits with the configuration as it stands on Geni at the moment.

Maybe an answer here?

What scenario leads James - during the battle of Flodden - to divide Sir John's Rattray lands between his two daughters, effectively excluding the sons of his second family?

On 24 May 1517 Grizel Rattray, here treated, had a precept of sasine for one half of the barony of Rattray, and other lands located in the sheriffdom of Perth, by virtue of an act made on the field of Flodden in Northumberland by the deceased James IV, King of Scots. On the same date her sister Elizabeth Rattray had a precept of sasine for the other half. RSRS 1513-22, p. 594

Both King James and Sir John die in the battle. The question is who is there that benefits from Sir John's daughters getting the Rattray lands between them, and not Sir John's sons?

The 3rd Earl of Athol - who eventually marries Grisel Rattray and is very covetous of the territory is only a boy at the time acc to his Wikipedia b date of 1507 - but his father is at Flodden - and survives it. Is he the reason James excludes the Rattray 2nd family sons? Are the two children already promised to each other? Does the 2nd Earl of Athol think quickly in the chaos of defeat? Do the Athols play a long game from there?
[Should I be writing historical fiction, or what? :-)]

Medlands has this for Grizel

Grizel Rattray (->1533)
d/o JOHN Rattray of that Ilk
x 1521 JOHN STEWART (1507-1542) Earl of Atholl

• BARBARA x 1536 JAMES Menzies
• ISABEL x 1552) WILLIAM Stuart
• MARGARET (-1540) x 1539 JOHN Grant
• HELEN x JOHN Macfarlane
• JOHN (-1579) Earl of Atholl x <1547 ELIZABETH Gordon xx1557 MARGARET
• JEAN x JOHN Otterburn xx GEORGE Crawford
• NN x Lord Balfour
• NN x WALTER Wood

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#JohnBalven...

Melands has no supporting documentation for her father, so I presume 'of that ilk' isn't proved.

If you take Grisel's wedding date on Medlands of 1521 at face value (which makes her husband only 14yrs) - and we presume she's not likely to have been only 8yrs at the time - then as a 12yr old bride her b 1509; as a 14yr old bride her b 1507; as a 20yr old bride her b 1501
So b (<1509-)

Actually, if we presume Elizabeth Kennedy need only be 15 in 1479, then her birth date could be (<1464 -)

Her mother's marriage date is significant then:

• Elizabeth Gordon married Nicholas, first Earl of Erroll. The marriage contract is dated 15 November 1461. Her first husband is reported to have died in 1470. The Scots Peerage III: 565
• Elizabeth Gordon. dowager Countess of Erroll, married John, Lord Kennedy. The Scots Peerage II: 457 They were married before 14 July 1471. RMS: charter number 1036

This suggests that Elizabeth must be born after 1461 at least, if the first husband's death is incorrect , or the mother is assumed not be adulterous - if not then that's a problem for her Kennedy daughter's marriage by 1479 because it makes her 8 at her marriage.

Oh dear!!

If 12 at her marriage, then Elizabeth Kennedy's birth <1467? Maybe?

<1509- <1467 gives an 'outside date' for Elizabeth Kennedy's age at Griselda's birth as 42yrs old. Quite doable

If Grisel's birth is <1509

then 'outside' date for Sir John as her father <1509-<1459 could be 50yrs

and 'outside' date for John the soldier of that ilk as her father <1509-<1493 could be 16yrs (and she has a younger sister, Elizabeth). This seems less likely, but the earlier he's born the more likely it becomes.

It's all getting very speculative here