Sir Walter de Cantilupe - Douglas Richardson left out this generation?

Started by dale scott on Sunday, September 24, 2023
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Richardson stated the William de Cantelowe who died 1239 was the son of Walter and Amice,where GENI has his parents as Walter of this profile and Sibilla de Braose, and his grandparents as Walter and Emecina (Amice?)

Unless you want to read it all, I suggest you CTRL-F for Walter.

https://soc.history.medieval.narkive.com/pIcw3ChP/parentage-of-sir-...
Douglas Richardson,
Given these records, it seems apparent that Sir William de Cantelowe
(died 1239) was the son and heir of Walter de Cantelowe (living
1201-2), by his wife, Amice.

Further down in another posting, Richardson states Walter was living in 1216
CANTELOWE FAMILY
1. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, married _____.
2. WALTER DE CANTELOWE, living 1216, married AMICE _____.
3. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, died 1239, married MASCELINE (or
MAZRA) DE BRACY.
4. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt., died 1251, married (1st) c.
1215/6 MILICENT DE GOURNAY; (2nd) after 1232 MAUD FITZ GEOFFREY, died
1261.
5 (by1). WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt.,died 1254,
married before 1241 EVE DE BREWES.

The GENI dates of birth and death don't work very well, and the children don't match other sites very well either. Other sites have other fathers, dates, and children.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#Willia... States Walter died after 1190 and his children were William, Roger, and Fulk.

Walter de Cauntelo states Walter and Emecina were the parents of Walter of this profile b. 1098-1148 d. aft. 1190 and his children were William, Thomas, Maud, Roger, and Sibilla. Wives were Sibilla de Braose and Melette

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cantilupe-38 states William was the father of Walter 1133-1204 and Walter's children were Maud, William, Fulk, Roger, and Mabel. Wife was Melette Dinan.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/110551420/walter-de_cantilupe states William was the father of Walter lived 1128-1182 and children were Thomas, William, and Maud. Wife was Sibilla.

https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p225.htm#... states William was the father of Walter who d. aft 1155, children were William; Robert Barat; & Roger Orget, Nichole, Sybil, and Isabel. Wife was Amice.
Citations
1    [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. II, p. 73-75.
2    [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. II, p. 73.
3    [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. II, p. 74.

Sources are slim. GENI gives Internet trees, Findagrave, and SOME EARLY ENGLISH PEDIGREES. With the later, I get three snippets if I search for Cantelou, and they aren't helpful. Should I look for another spelling?

Perhaps Richardson is correct, and this generation should be deleted? Walter and Sibilla de Braose would be removed making the father of William de Cantilupe 1158-1239 become Walter d. aft 1216 and Amice.

Any sources to indicate Richardson is wrong?
If Richardson is followed, does the father of Walter, the husband of Amice, become William?

GENI changed my post. :)

After this line
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#Willia...

I typed the GENI URL for this profile, but it defaulted to "Sir Walter de Cantilupe states Walter and Emecina were the parents of Walter of this profile."

I think geni is following Richardson second post:

CANTELOWE FAMILY
1. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, married _____.
2. WALTER DE CANTELOWE, living 1216, married AMICE _____.
3. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, died 1239, married MASCELINE (or MAZRA) DE BRACY.
4. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt., died 1251, married (1st) c.
1215/6 MILICENT DE GOURNAY; (2nd) after 1232 MAUD FITZ GEOFFREY, died 1261.
5 (by1). WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt.,died 1254, married before 1241 EVE DE BREWES.

All right, I see the problems.

Let’s start with the one with a Wikipedia article.

William de Cantilupe, 1st feudal Baron of Eaton Bray

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Cantilupe_(died_1239)

William I de Cantilupe (c. 1159 - 7 April 1239) (anciently Cantelow, Cantelou, Canteloupe, etc., Latinised to de Cantilupo)[2] 1st feudal baron of Eaton (Bray) in Bedfordshire, England, was an Anglo-Norman royal administrator who served as steward of the household to King John and as Baron of the Exchequer.

He was born in about 1159 in Buckinghamshire,[citation needed] the son of Walter de Cantilupe, recorded in 1166 as a minor landowner in Essex and Lincolnshire, who was a younger brother of Fulk de Cantilupe (died 1217/18), Sheriff of Berkshire in 1200/1.[3]

He married Mazilia (or Marcelin/Mascelin) de Braci, daughter and heiress of Adulf de Braci of Mentmore in Buckinghamshire,[15] who brought him that manor and others in Kent, and by whom he had issue including: …

References

  • Holden, B.W (2004a). "Cantilupe, Fulk de (d. 1217/18)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/4565. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.)
  • Holden, B.W (2004b). "Cantilupe, William (I) de (d. 1239)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/4572. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.)
  • Nichols, John (1795). The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester. Vol. II pt.II. Leicester: John Nichols.
  • Sanders, I.J. (1960). English Baronies, A Study of Their Origin and Descent 1086–1327. Oxford.The first edition of this text is available at Wikisource: "Cantelupe, William de (d.1239)" . Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co. 1885–1900. This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Luard, Henry Richards (1886). "Cantelupe, William de (died 1239)". In Stephen, Leslie (ed.). Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 8. London: Smith, Elder & Co. p. 454. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_18...). Cites:
    • [Annales Monast. i. 104, 112, iii. 31, 87, 100, 122, iv. 430; Matt. Paris, ii. 533, 588, 610, iii. 15, 18, 83; Dugdale's Baronage; Foss's Judges.]

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/WgmTUD7Dly8/m/...

… Given these records, it seems apparent that Sir William de Cantelowe (died 1239) was the son and heir of Walter de Cantelowe (living 1201-2), by his wife, Amice. Sir William de Cantelowe's younger brother, Robert de Cantelowe, is presumably the man of that name who was ancestor of the cadet Cantelowe family seated at Chilton Cantelowe, Somerset.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#Willia...

LORDS CAUNTELO

Loyd says that this family originated in Canteleu in the present-day French département of Seine-Maritime (previously Seine-Inférieure), arrondissement Dieppe, canton Bacqueville, commune Luneray[1053].

2. WALTER de Cauntelo (-after [1135]). Ingulph's Chronicle of the Abbey of Croyland records that "Walter de Cantilupe and Emicina his wife" visited Croyland (dated to 1114)[1055]. The 1130 Pipe Roll records "Walto de Cantu Lupi" in Lincolnshire[1056]. "…Robertus Cantelip…Waterus de Cantelupo…" witnessed the charter dated to [1135] under which "W. de Roumara" granted land of "Iuonis et Colsueni auunculorum suorum" to "Roberto nepoti comitisse"[1057]. m EMICINA, daughter of --- (-after 1114). Ingulph's Chronicle of the Abbey of Croyland records that "Walter de Cantilupe and Emicina his wife" visited Croyland (dated to 1114)[1058].

[No children defined]

  • 1. WALTER de Cauntelo (-after 3 Oct 1190). The Red Book of the Exchequer names "Radulfus de Kantilupo, i militem, Walterus de Kantilupo, ii milites" as tenants of William de Roumare in Lincolnshire in 1166[1071]. The Feet of Fines records the judgment dated 3 Oct 1190 in a claim by "Benedictum fil Rad de Hengsterwrth" against "Walterum de Kantelu"[1072]. m ---. The name of Walter’s wife is not known. Walter & his wife had three children:
    • a) WILLIAM [II] de Cauntelo (-7 Apr 1239). "William de Cantelupe son of Walter de Cantelupe" donated rent received "annually from Samson his free man of Leg" to Montacute priory by undated charter, witnessed by "William de Cantelupe my son and heir…Gilbert de Sai…"[1073]. … m ---. The name of William’s wife is not known. William [II] & his wife had [four] children: …
      • i) WILLIAM [III] de Cauntelo (-1251). "William de Cantelupe son of Walter de Cantelupe" donated rent received "annually from Samson his free man of Leg" to Montacute priory by undated charter, witnessed by "William de Cantelupe my son and heir…Gilbert de Sai…"[1079]. - see below … m [firstly] ([15 Mar 1217]) as her second husband, MELISENDE de Gournay, widow of AMAURY [VI] de Montfort Comte d’Evreux, daughter of HUGUES [V] Seigneur de Gournay & his wife [Juliane de Dammartin]. [m secondly (before 28 Aug 1236) ---, daughter of THOMAS FitzAnthony & his wife ---. Henry III King of England pardoned "William de Cantilupe", who "married one of the daughters and heirs of Thomas Fitz Anthony", …
      • ii) WALTER de Cauntelo . Henry III King of England granted "ecclesiam de Penred" to "clericum nostrum Walterum de Cantilupo filium…Willelmi de Cantilupo" dated 20 Aug 1223[1080]. Bishop of Worcester.
      • iii) [JOHN de Cauntelo (-after 24 Jul 1236). m MARGERY Comyn, daughter of WILLIAM Comyn & his wife Margery ---
      • iv) [--- . The reference to the demise of Thurstan [III]’s land to William de Cauntelo (presumably identified as William [II]%29 … families. m THURSTAN [III] de Montfort, son of HENRY [II] de Montfort & his wife --- ([1183/87]-1216, before 21 Nov).]
    • b) ROGER de Cauntelo . "Willelmus de Cantilupo" paid a fine for "pro Rogero de Cantilupo fratre nostro pro ux q fuit Hug de Hasting" and custody of her "iv filios et I filia…primogenit x ann", dated 1202[1085].
    • c) FULK de Cauntelo (-before Dec 1227). The Testa de Nevill lists knights who held land in Northamptonshire, dated to [1208/10]: "Fulco de Cantilupo" held land "manerium de Burton de domino rege"[1087].

I’ve uploaded this study from Vernon M. Norr. Some Early English Pedigrees. Page 97. http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idviewer/277483/100

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000198540732826

I’ve pruned the tree to conform to Richardson, Douglas (2013) Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial & Medieval Families. As quoted at https://myfamilysearch.net/getperson.php?personID=I6537&tree=2005217a. PDFs of that site uploaded as well.

Note: Richardson differs a bit from Medlands. But IMO, Richardson is more complete and detailed for the English descent.

This has resulted in “stray” Cantilupes / Cauntilou’s I hope can be re-homed.

Starting with brothers? John de Cantilupe, of Snitfield & Thomas de Cantilupe

Melette With two children attached, Thomas de Cantelou & Maud de Cantelou (who had a brother William de Cantelou but which one?)

Sibilla de Braose

I believe Walter de Cauntelo is shown at Medlands without children.

“In or before 1152 Oxford married again. His second wife, Euphemia de Cantilupe is said to have been the daughter of William de Cantilupe.“ (Which one?)

Hope this resolves most of the Cantelou confusion, dale scott

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/WgmTUD7Dly8/m/...

A descent:

1. William de C.
2. William de C.m. Eva de Braose
3. Milicent de C. m. Eudo de Zouche
4. Eve la Zouche m. Maurice de Berkeley
5. Isabel de Berkeley m. Robert de Clifford
6. Roger de Clifford m. Maud de Beauchamp
7. Katherine de Clifford m. Ralph de Greystoke
8. Maud de Greystoke m. Eudes Welles
9. Lionel Welles m. Joan Waterton
10. Margaret Welles m. Thomas Dymoke
11. Jane Dymoke m. John Fulnetby
12. Katherine Fulnetby m. William Dynwell
13. Anne Dynewell m. Henry Whitgift
14. William Whitgift
15. Elizabeth Whitgift m. Wymond Bradbury
16. Thomas Bradbury b.1610/11, New World immigrant.

So, who was the Sir William Cantelupe whom Bartrum charts in Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 40 (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173378030022) who's daughter married Hywel Fychan ap Hywel? Bartrum says his source is Normans in Glamorgan, p. 121 ( I haven't found that book) and that Sir William was living in 1245.

There were actually 2 Hywel Fychan ap Hywels in this family, one c. 1210, the other c.1240. These men would match to first wives born c. 1225 and c. 1255. Which one would be a daughter of a William Cantelupe? Is that Wialliam one of the men in this discussion, or is he perhaps from a cousin line? Or is the daughter a second wife for Hywel Fychan, and closer in age to him?

Private User any thoughts on this?

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#Willia...

Shows the families of William d 1251 & his son William d 1254.

The closest geographically are the children of Eva de Briouse, heiress of Abergavenny, mentioned in The Chronicle of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire.

Bibliographic Details
Title: The Normans In Glamorgan, Gower and Kidweli
Publisher: William Lewis, Cardiff
Publication Date: 1936
Binding: Cloth
Illustrator: None
Condition: Very Good Indeed
Edition: First edition.
Book Type: book

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cantilupe-66 Disputes her existence at all.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cantilupe-66

Boyer, who generally follows Bartrum, does not show a mother for Hywel Fychan. [2]

2. Boyer, Carl. (1937). Medieval Welsh ancestors of certain Americans : a comprehensive genealogy with biographical and...

Hywel is #10 on page 38.
Hywel Fychan is #16 on page 39.

https://archive.org/details/medievalwelshanc00boye/page/38/mode/2up (Free membership to borrow for an hour).

https://archive.org/details/medievalwelshanc00boye/page/38/mode/2up

Page 38
16. i. Hywel Fychan^ of Breigan, m. dau. of Sir William Cantelupe.

Page 39
He married a daughter of Sir William Cantelupe [Bl. ap M. 40]

Page 41
ix. Sir William (or Elis) Cantelupe of Tregantllo, m. Mawd de Londres, dau.


https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L7X1-4VP Calks her Agnes & the daughter of William d 1251 & Millicent Gournay

The FamilySearch profile cites Vernon M. Norr, Some Early English Pedigrees. Page 97. Which, surprise! (not) has no such marriage for Agnes Cantelou:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000198540732826

The problem with the Bartrum chart is that he conflated several same named men. Wolcott has since sorted that out, which is where I got the two Hywel Fychans mentioned above. As you can see, the Hywel Fychan in the Family Search page falls between those men, chronologically.

Eureka !!!! (I think).

In Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 40 ( https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173378030022 ) you can see Hywel Fychan at Gen 6, and his son Hopkin at Gen 8. If you go to Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 41 ( https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173383294874 ) you will see that Hopkin had a son named Sir William Cantelope of Tregantllo. That Sir William was the one mentioned by Boyer as having married Mawd de Londres. He is NOT William IV de Cauntelo, son of Nicholas, son of William II. Bartrum places him in Gen 9, requiring Gen 7 (.c1230-65) grandparents. That makes him a perfect match for the c. 1240 Hywel Fychan and a c. 1255 daughter of Sir William Cantelupe, or as we have him in Geni, William de Cantelou III, Baron Abergavenny.

And we already have that connection as N.N. de Cantilupe I doubt she was a daughter of Eva de Braose, as she goes unnoticed in Medlands and other lists of children for Eva. The Welsh were very tolerant of so called "illigitamate" children marrying into Welsh families. It would not be surprising if her mother was also a Welsh lady. And there is nothing to support her name as Agnes.

I am changing her to N.N. de Cantilupe and disconnecting her from Eva.

Steven Mitchell Ferry - works for me!

William de Cantelou, Baron Abergavenny however has too many extra children now.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cantilupe-64 Suggests he had a first wife, Dionis FitzAnthony, no children mentioned.

Perhaps a son John who died young.

Everyone else currently attached needs to move.

Is Sir William Langton, of Henllys, Llangenydd, and Gower married to the correct Eva de Braose, Lady Abergavenny

Notes in his profile say he married:

Eva de Breos‏‎ #2342‎, daughter of Lord William de Braose of Bramber and Gower, Wales and Alice de Multon‏.

But Eva de Braose, Lady Abergavenny was the daughter of William de Braose, Baron Abergavenny & Eva Marshal, Baroness Abergavenny

The cadair link needs replacement as the URL moved, but text is clear that she married William de Cantilupe.

Steven Mitchell Ferry

I found this citation in Eva’s profile:

  1. The Red Dragon, Volume 11. Page 179. < GoogleBooks > His son Robert (through, it is said, the death s.p. of his elder brother Vincent) succeeded his father Sir Walter, and was Knighted and became Sir Robert Mansel of Missenden, Bucks. He married Burga Langeton or Langton, a Gower heiress, daughter of Sir William Langeton, Knight, Lord of Henllys and Langrove, in Gower, by his wife Eva, daughter of William (Gam) de Broase, Lord of Gower, and his wife Isabel, daughter of Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford. …

Which refers to Burga Langton

Steven Mitchell Ferry Or Private User

Would you care to curate this Eva de Broase

Erica Howton According to Cawley, William IV (our William III) and Eva had Millicent, Joan, and George, which is echoed in Wikipedia. Neither mention another marriage for either of them.

I changed the Bartrum link for both Eva's, and I see you found the right Eva for William Langton.

I'll pass on curating in this neck of the woods. My brief foray here has already added more white hair. I'll stick to the Welsh.

Oh, y’all. Very enjoyable.

Steven Mitchell Ferry I will curare Eva. I have as much patience with the Anglo-Normans as I do for the Welsh, because I find them hilarious. I cannot explain this.

https://www.geni.com/search?search_type=people&names=Erica+howton — No. The source that the peerage cites is a good one (to my surprise, as it was written in the 19th century by an amateur who goes ON and ON about how difficult it is to do this work), with careful and excellent citations. Joan is the daughter of a Sir William de Braose who is the son of John, not Reginald.

Here is that pedigree; the peerage has it right — https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/227692/?offset=&r...

On the other hand, the William de Braose that you are thinking of is one of my favorites of the gawdawful de Braoses, who were very badly behaved in Wales — https://www.truecrimemedieval.com/llewelyn-the-great-hangs-william-...

Lol.

Also, that William and Joan and Llewelyn were all middle aged and not teenagers and really there is no excuse for all this.

Are you sure it’s not the Welsh who are hilarious? :)

Thank you, I was getting quite lost in de Braoses.

Erica Howton as I am a descendant of all parties involved, I hold that none were faultless. The whole fam is hilarious.

William de Cauntell my 23 rd Great Grandfather

Add me my 23rd Great Grandfather.

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