The Daughter of Rabbi Akiva - What do we do in such a situation?

The information written by Naftali Wakstein on the subject is on page 49, I think that without registering on the site, it is impossible to see the information

If it is possible to upload a file/screenshot here, I will upload it, I just need an explanation of how to upload a file/screenshot to the discussion

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski I have made the changes I am able to accomplish. Now I shall ask a Curator to complete as folllows: ?Breindel? Kara (Breindel Caro) is detached from spouse Rabbi Avigdor Kara, of Vienna (Avigdor V Karo of Vienna). The rest is already set up according to the latest data.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski please dont do anything until the edits are complete. Then you can check everything to see if things are okay. Thanks.

Private User

Thank you very much Adam
You sent me a request to change data in the profile of:
?Breindel? Kara

Do you want me to forward your request to Geni curator, or wait?

By the way, in the books there is confusion between the Kra family (who are of Ashkenazi origin), and the Caro family (who are of Sephardic origin)... As far as I understand, all the family members here belong to the Kra family

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski Please hold any changes until the Kra/Caro issue for GENI is settled.

On the Kra/Caro distinction, like most Ashkenazi/Sephardic things, Jacobi has studied the issue and has written that the Ashkenazic family was written throughout history in Hebrew as: קרא or קארא and since these letters can be transcribed variously as Kara, Cara, Kra, (or even Cra, which I have never seen used). The Sephardic name was "invariably" written as קרוֹ or קארוֹ (hence Cro, Caro, Kro, Karo) (Jacobi Papers Vol3, Page 88, 16). All of the profiles we are looking at now pertain to the Ashkenazic family which I choose to call Kara because that is apparently the way it was written by the family for 400 years (in the 18th Century the vast majority of the Ashkenazic family went from Kara to Caro, due to a mistaken belief that they descended from the Sephardic Joseph Caro (Shulhan Aruch). The Sephardic family he names as Caro. Jacobi did not find any evidence of a family tree connection between the Ashkenazic Kara and the Sephardic Caro families

So to sum up the Jacobi analysis: the Ashkenazic family is best called Kara, and the Sephardic family is best called Caro, BUT in the 18th Century, the Ashkenazic Kara family began for the most part to use Caro due to a self-perpetuated genealogical error.

So as for which names to use on GENI, I suggest that we not try to standardize the spelling on GENI. Just as we now have Ashkenazic Spira, Spiro, Shapira, Shapiro, etc. Due to the nature of GENI, trying to maintain a specific spelling is going to create a never-ending monitoring task. The important thing on GENI is to keep the pedigrees and descents accurate, regardless of what spelling variants are used by the various managers and curators.

I have attached what Jacobi writes about the Ashkenazi Caro name to many of the relevant profiles (for example here: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000213347114841).

And here is what Jacobi wrote about the Sephardic name: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000213348834842

For those interested, Jacobi devotes several pages to a discussion about the Karo/Caro and Ashkenazic/Sephardic families, their surnames and origins in Volume 3, Pages 83-90, of the published Jacobi Papers.

Private User

Thank you very much Adam, I will not make any changes to the profiles

I have a theory (which I do not know if it is correct or not): there may have been a marriage between members of the Kra family and members of the Caro family, and because the names are very similar, this has caused confusion in many books.

I have seen books where it is written about a son with the last name Kra, while his father: Caro, this is impossible....maybe there was a marriage here and the son-in-law was Kra and the father-in-law was Caro

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski It is okay to accept the date change now. Please also look at the tree to see if the Akiva Frankfurter-Gugenheim is correct now.

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"I have seen books where it is written about a son with the last name Kra, while his father: Caro, this is impossible..."

Apparently, there were instances where one generation changed the spelling from the previous generation (and back and forth), and also at one point most of the Ashkenazic family decided they were of Sephardic origin and switched to Caro. So there is much confusion WITHIN the same family as to how to spell the name. The danger here is of 'missing the forest for the trees', which is to say, being stuck on the detail of spelling rather than focusing on the accuracy of the relationships.

Private User

Thanks a lot Adam

Regarding the changes you asked me to make, if I understand correctly they have already been made...if I am wrong, please feel free to correct the things that need to be corrected

Regarding Kra and Caro, I do not understand why certain family members of the Kra family decided to use the surname Caro, unless there was a marriage here, and the children adopted the surname Caro, which may have been their mother's surname.

An example of such a case can be found in one of my ancestors:

R' Menachem Mendel Margolioth, ABD Przemyśl and Pińczów

That his sons from his first wife (I am his descendant from his second wife), adopted their mother's last name: Margaliot

I don't understand why he is called Margaliot in the books, because his last name was Stengen

I should note that my father told me that we are descendants of either the Margolis family or the Margaliot family (it's been over 30 years, so I don't remember exactly), but I assume it's not that branch.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski I believe the changes are already implemented.

No doubt, there are many instances on the Ashkenazic tree where children adopted the mother's maiden surname. Probably each of the Kra-to-Caro or Kara-to-Kra situations needs to be looked at individually, which can be done in the fullness of time.

For the moment just defining the relationships is enough for me. For example, here is another trouble spot: Rabbi Yehuda Aryeh Leib Caro, ABD Glogau is born ca. 1510 (which I believe is correct), yet his father is born ca 1610 and his grandfather born ca 1575. Instead, Jacobi asserts that his father is: Rabbi Avigdor Kara, of Vienna I am not going to pursue this correction. My job is to make the managers and curators aware via discussions and posts.

Private User

Thank you very much Adam

I must point out that research on the Kra family is one of the most difficult and complicated...both because of the confusion between the Kra and Caro families, and because there is conflicting information in rabbinic literature

I have the ilan yuchasin of the Kra family , and I have also attached it as the profile picture of one of my ancestors, but I cannot guarantee that the information in it is accurate.

As far as I understand, the first of the Kra family was:

חלבו קרא

And if you look at the things I wrote on his profile, you'll see that I wrote that all research about the Kra family should be taken with caution and try and verify any information.

Private User

One more thing I forgot to mention:
If you look at my great-grandfather's(5th) profile:

rabbi Yaakov Azriel (zelig) Raychert

I received information written by a relative from this branch, and he claimed that the family originated from Spain, and that the family was descended from the Kra, Benveniste and Levitan families, and after the expulsion from Spain, they came to Bavaria to a town called Reichert, and were asked to change their family name

Here, I believe that the relative was mistaken, and that it is the Caro family and not the Kra ... I tried to find information regarding the continuity of the family tree, and I was unable to find