Source Documents

Tagging the profile in question with the URL, which is:

William John Burrell Buttrill

And also tagging the "primary manager" of that profile, my wonderful fellow curator, Marsha Veazy:

Marsha Gail Veazey

Marsha,

Did you want to take Joe's question? I can help walk thru the technicalities, but he's also asking "interpretation" questions!

Joe and I have been 'talking' about this offline and I'm of no help, I'm afraid. I don't understand technically how this works. When I upload a doc or photo it goes into MY profile and I want it to go into the other person's profile. Do you know how to do this, Erica?

P.S. Joe and I are very distantly related through my husband! Hi, Joe!

My great grandmother (@William "Will" J. B. Buttrill's mother) was a Veazey.

But getting back to source documents, I've loaded two source documents now, both under Will's profile: his death certificate and an 1880 Census family record from FamilySearch.org. The death certificate is attached to the event called Death of William "Will" J. B. Buttrill. I also entered an event record, which I called Residence, that I attached to the census source document.

Addtionally, each source document has three profiles in addition to Will's attached to each. The death certificate has Will's wife (my grandmother, @Samuel "Stella" Stella Buttrill), Will's father (my great grandfather, @David "Brit" Britton Buttrill), and Will's mother (my great grandmother, @(976) Jane Elizabeth Buttrill). The census has my great grandfather, my great grandmother, and my great uncle (@James "Tom" Thomas Buttrill).

The death certificate has eight facts associated with it: Place of Birth, Death and Burial; Date of Birth, Death and Burial; Occupation; and Cause of Death. The census record has no facts associated with it.

When viewing Will's profile on the Overview Tab, both source documents appear. When viewing it on the Sources Tab, only the death certificate doument appears; the census document is not shown.

When viewing profiles on the Timeline Tab, the Residence event appears not only on Will's profile, but also Brit's, Jane's and Tom's, which is good. Unfortunately, the Death of Will event also appears on four timelines: Will's, Stella's, Brit's and Jane's, which is not good because Brit and Jane died long before Will.

I understand, I think, why this is happening. When loading the source document Geni asked for all of the people who appeared on the document, and the deceased's parents were listed on the document.

So, I think we have one inconsistency between the Overview Tab display of documents and the Source Tab. And, I think we have a problem with how the Death event works.

Please let me know what I may be doing wrong and how I should correct it.

@Noah Grzegosz Tutak would be the person to help us out here. I hope I can tag this so he sees it.

Noah TutakGrzegosz Tutak would be the person to help us out here. I hope I can tag this so he sees it.

@Noah, would you please help Joe with this source document problem? Thanks so much!

Joe, I'll also send a personal message with this URL. Thanks for your patience!

I've uploaded a bunch of Documents, tagged and Sourced them. I think I can explain what is happening here.

I want to tag the document with all the people that the document references. When I do that all the tagged people automatically get added to the tagged event. I don't want that to happen.

I wish Geni would keep the People tagged to an Event and the People tagged to a document separate. I can do this myself by removing the tagged people from the Event after tagging the Document with the Event. This does not change the list of tagged people on the Document. However I think that I would rather have Geni ask me if I want to update the list of tagged people in the Event when I go to save the Document details.

Good catch, Jonathan! I must confess I have not worked with "events" very much, but I agree on the principle you are describing. It is good to have it automated but it is also good to be able to turn it off.

Joe, one thing I've noticed when trying to associate profiles with source documents -- I *first* have to have worked with the other profiles or they are not available to me using the @ sign. So it's a two pass process.

I like your "description," "location" and "event" and feel like you used them correctly. I use the date of the event (death date in your example) as the date of the document, even though technically that may not be accurate. But I don't really care when the document was published: I care about the event date.

Marsha,

Cool beans on randomly finding a husband relative on geni. I love collaboration. :)

This is now I think documents work.

- when you upload a document, regardless of *where* you loaded it from, it is added to "my documents." It's not *on* your profile, it's in Marsha Veazy's "document repository."

- once a document is in your repository, you can associate it as a document on the profile with any profile you have rights to from the "media" tab. Or (more easily) add the document on the "profile." Then it will show in "my documents" as well -- but also be attached where you want it to be.

- once a document is in the repository / profile, it is available to tag as a "source" with multiple events.

- as two asides / enhancement requests:

-- I want to see "military service" as an available event / source. In researching my own ancestors, finding their military records was critical in unlocking many mysteries.

- I want to see "residence" as an available event / source. That is the logical event associated with the "collection" of "census reports."

Jonathan, I think you are probably correct in your deduction about how sources and events interact. However, I don't think we should be guessing about this. We should be going to the documentation and reading precisely how the features of Geni work. Unfortunately, when you go to the Geni Wiki, click on Documentation, and search the index for Source Documents, there is nothing.

Joe,

You may not realize how very new the "sources" tool is ... it was released about six months ago, I believe: preceded by the tool of "documents," which is a year or so. (Someone who has been on geni longer could say better).

Geni's written documentation has not kept pace with development. Frankly, that's OK by me, because I'd rather they put the $ and staff effort into the constant improvement of the platform itself -- the network, servers, database, software tools, UI design, indexing and maintenance, communication efforts such as internal messaging and "family news," the discussion forums, and on and on. Not to mention, oh, yeah -- collaborative genealogy. :)

What geni is doing is inviting users to help document ourselves. There is a Wiki link at the bottom of the page full of outdated information we curators are busy figuring out how to update.

Everyone is invited to improve the wiki and join the study projects we've started, as well as suggest their own (that's the fun part for me).

As you learn your way around -- which is how ALL of us did it -- please *share* your information, just as you do your genealogy.

Erica,

1. As I indicated in another post on another topic, I'm not having problems tagging source documents. The drop down list of candidate profiles to be tagged works very well for me.

2. Thank you for your comment on my usage of Source Document related fields (description, location, date, event, etc.) But I'd be interested in hearing how these field originated. What was Geni's intent when including these fields? How did they envision that these fields would be used? Again, we could use some documentation here.

Joe,

I don't know how the history of sources evolved. I do believe it's a work in progress which will improve. But it works pretty good for me.

Erica,

I'm afraid your replies are coming faster than I'm able to respond.

1. I'm trying to post another source document to test your hypothesis that source documents reside with the profile manager's profile. However, at the moment I'm having some difficulty posting another source document.

2. As to your preference for speedy development over documentation, all I can say is "Haste makes waste."

3. I'll be happy to share whatever knowledge that I'm able to learn, but so far learning about Geni has been somewhat frustrating. I have over 2000 family members in my genealogy research stored on my PC with over 3000 source documents. They will have to be moved to Geni manually because I do not use GEDCOMs. I would very much like to do this right the first time.

Once I'm able to upload my next source document, I will share my findings with the Geni community.

That's terrific!

And I'll ask other curators who may have worked more with documents than I have to see if they can share their tricks and tips.

OK, since this morning, I have:

1. Acquired co-profile management rights for William John Burrell Buttrill.

2. Added an event entitled "Residence in 1930" and tagged it with four people: my grandfather (William John Burrell Buttrill), my grandmother (Samuel Stella Buttrill), my uncle (William Hearon Buttrill, Sr.), and my father (Sidney Eugene Buttrill, Sr.).

3. Attached a document to the event in item 2 above and tagged it with the same four people.

When I finished, Geni said that I had added a document to my profile (Joe Brous Buttrill). However, a check of my profile showed no source documents under either the Overview Tab or the Sources Tab. The same was true for my grandmother, my uncle and my father. My grandfather, on the other hand, now shows no Source Documents under the Overview Tab (as opposed to the two shown around noon yesterday) and one under his Sources Tab (his death certificate--the same as yesterday). Please refer back to Post #4, above.

Questions:

A. If all of the Source Documents are stored under the profile of the person who added them, does anyone know how to obtain (view) a list of the documents added so far?

B. Does anyone know why my grandfather's death certificate appears under his profile but the two census documents do not?

Tagging Noah Tutak and also Remi Trygve Pedersen and Private User
to follow this discussion.

Joe is kindly walking us through building out his documented sources in geni, step by step, in a "fresh" profile. I wonder if someone would be able enough to consolidate steps into a "how to" guide for the Geni user Wiki?

I am not yet brave enough to tackle updating the Wiki myself, but it indeed an essential category that will be very helpful for many.

Don't confuse Sources with Documents. In Geni a Source is only the linked relationship between a Document and a piece of Data.

Documents are stored with the person that uploaded them. Currently there is no way to look at another users list of documents. You can look at your own by clicking on the More menu and clicking on Documents.

Under a profiles Media tab you will find all Documents tagged to that profile. Under a profiles Sources tab you will find Sources that are linked to a Document. You may also find links to Documents inside events that have been tagged to a Document.

I think you may be seeing some of the profile changes that were made yesterday as with the new profile layout there should never be a reference to a Document on the Overview tab. When you had looked yesterday you may have seen the old profile layout which would have had Documents shown there.

There does seem to be a bug in the new layout as at least one of my profiles states "Showing 5 of 7 documents" but then there is only 1 listed.

When I viewed your Grandfather's profile I see 3 documents attached.

Thank you, Jonathan, you stated it very clearly. Also I should have referred to the "media" tab (released yesterday so we all need to get used to it).

Joe,
Welcome to Geni! you have come to the right place!

I looked at Will's profile, opened the Media tab, and found 3 docs for Will. Then I looked at timeline, and the 1930 residence shows up for Will. If I click on the hyperlink, I see the link for all 4 people you wanted in this event. Beneath them is a document, the copy of the census page? I have too many tabs open and my computer is being slow. You are doing every thing exactly right.

Erica is right, the tools are constantly evolving. When I started, we only had "photos" and all my early docs were put there. Then we got the Document tab, and I had to teach myself how to do that. Now we have the Media tab and it puts all these things together in one place. Super awesome improvement.

Erica suggested starting a Wiki. We could certainly use one for "newbies," explaining how to use tools as they are developed. I'm not the person to do that. I just made my first two entries in a wiki in the past month. We have half-a-dozen people far more qualified to help with that. Off the top of my head, Pam Wilson and Harald Alvestrand are good resources.

And Maria, David K. is working on a paper document guide for newcomers, which he will ask one of us to convert to wiki format when done.

So we should make sure David K. is up to speed with the brand new, released yesterday media tab, too. :)

David Lee Kaleita
I'm tagging David so he can start following this discussion.

David -- are you up to speed on the change in tabs, especially the new "media" tab? It was part of the most recent release. Now photos, documents, etc. are all gathered together on one tab.

ACK! was that a hint that I need to learn how to write a wiki? Where are all my favorite geeks when I need them. I wonder if dear hubby has done one. I'll put it on HIS to-do list, right under "create a Facebook page for our cat Apple."

OK, I understand all of this, though I'm not sure I agree with it--but that's a another topic. My question is: How did you people learn about the Media Tab? Was there an announcement somewhere that I missed? Where is new Geni functionality publicized/documented?

I've just noticed that the document that I uploaded yesterday, a page from the 1930 Census, is listed as Private.

1. I tried to click the "Make Public" button on my Document List, but nothing happened. Is this a bug?

2. Also, how/when/why are documents made public/private?

3. Almost all of my source documents come from publicly published sources--generally on the Internet. What is a private document?

Jonathan, you said yesterday:

"Don't confuse Sources with Documents. In Geni a Source is only the linked relationship between a Document and a piece of Data."

"Under a profiles Media tab you will find all Documents tagged to that profile. Under a profiles Sources tab you will find Sources that are linked to a Document."

If you look at my grandfather's profile (William John Burrell Buttrill), under the Media Tab there are three "Documents" listed, one of which is his death certificate with the link http://www.geni.com/documents/view/6000000003329994210?doc_id=60000.... Now, switching to his Sources Tab, there is one "Source" listed, which is his death certificate with the link http://www.geni.com/documents/view/6000000003329994210?doc_id=60000.... Both the "Document" and the "Source" appear to be the same, at least they link to the same place.

Now, I'm confused, again.

Erica and Maria, the paper I have been playing with [in my spare time ;-)] has a tentative working title of "Important Information and Recommended Strategies for New Users of Geni.com". And by "new users", I mean people who have either never heard of the Big Tree project or Geni's mission to facilitate the creation of one world tree, or just want to learn more about it. The paper will largely be about managing expectations and how new and other Geni users can most effectively help each other. The paper will not contain much info on how to use Geni or any Geni's software features. Instead, the intent is to psychologically prepare users for the implications of connecting their trees to other users (often strangers), and the benefits of effectively donating a portion of their past, present and future time and effort to the Big Tree project.

Basically, the focus of this paper is to try to prevent the inevitable FREAKOUT that way too many people have when they suddenly find themselves connected to the Big Tree and other people are screwing around in what these folks had previously though were their own private trees. Folks should know about what they are potentially getting themselves into when they create and start using a Geni account. I believe that if they are fully informed and properly prepared up front, new users could actually be HELPFUL.

That's a great focus for the paper David, and I very much agree: new users can be very helpful. I am learning from Joe's questions.

We do need a documentation / FAQ macher to climb aboard "The Good Ship Geni."

Joe,

A private document only you (or a member of your "family group" also ?) can view. A public document anyone can see.

The default should be set to public. There may be a toggle button or a hyperlink that sets to private that was hit?

Erica,

I understand the concepts of public and private, I think--unless Geni has changed it in the last 24 hours. What I'm trying to understand is why documents that are publicly available on the Internet are made private.

I've loaded three documents--the last one was stored as private; the first two were stored as public. I don't recall explicitly setting any of them to public or private, but maybe I did. What I'm asking is why are these documents private vs. public, so that I can assure that future documents are stored with the proper setting.

I would also like to change the one document stored as private to public so that everyone can access it, but I can't. I would like to know what I'm doing wrong, or if it's a bug, when is it going to be fixed?

I believe the concept of "private documents" would be geni's ability to keep information within a family grouping -- not referring to "publicly available on the internet" (even though that may be where it was originally sourced: but geni has no way of knowing that).

For instance the birth certificate of a living mother would want to be "kept private." Or your own, for that matter. :)

It could be that *where* you upload the document from, which profile, matters on the default privacy setting. But you should be able to change it within "my documents." I would have to look.