Gerberga of Lorraine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerberge_of_Lorraine

Not to be confused with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerberga_of_Lorraine

Gerberge of Lorraine (c. 935-978) was the daughter of Giselbert, Duke of Lorraine,[1] and Gerberga of Saxony,[2] daughter of Henry I the Fowler, King of Germany. She was a descendant of Charlemagne through both her parents.[1][2] Gerberge died sometime after 7 September 978.[1]

In or before 954, she married Adalbert I of Vermandois.[1]

Family

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vermandois-196

Issue

Adalbert and Gerberge had these children. Heribert was presumably the eldest son. Not much is known about any other offspring. Bishop Liudolf seems to be accepted, on little evidence. Gisele is presumably spurious, like her aunts.

Guy de Soissons is provisionally placed by MedLands in the previous generation, as Adalbert's brother, citing several explicit records, but there seem to be possible difficulties with dates. French Wikipedia shows neither placing.

1. Heribert IV (954 - 29 Aug 993) [8]
2. Otto (950/5 - after 02 Nov 958/9). [8][11] He was thought to be Comte de Chiny (unproven). [12][11]
3. Liudolf, Bishop of Noyon (957 - ante 09 Nov 986) [8]
4. Eleonore [8]

   ---

MEDIEVAL LANDS

ADALBERT [Albert] [I], son of HERIBERT [II] Comte de Vermandois & his wife Adela [Capet] (-8 Sep 987). Flodoard names "Adalbertus filius Heriberti"[1327]. Under the division of territories organised after his father's death in 943, he became Comte de Vermandois. Comte Albert re-established the abbey of Homblières and built Mont-Saint-Quentin[1328]. When his brother Hugues was deposed as archbishop of Reims in 948, Comte Albert gave up the family's struggle with Louis IV "d'Outremer" King of France and swore allegiance to the king. He opposed the election of Hugues Capet as king of France, but eventually submitted[1329].

[m firstly HERESINDE, daughter of ---. According to the Histoire de Guise, Comte Albert constructed the abbey of Saint-Michel at Rochefort in 945 "d'accord avec la comtesse Hérésinde sa femme", while in 947 Hérésinde founded the nearby Benedictine convent of Bucilly[1330]. The source assumes that this refers to Albert Comte de Vermandois, but his supposed first marriage is not mentioned by Settipani[1331]. According to the introduction to the Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Bucilly, Bucilly was founded by "Gerberge, femme d'Albert I Comte de Vermandois" although it notes that "certains auteurs ont voulu faire remonter [sa foundation] à la libéralité de Hersinde femme d'Herbert Comte de Vermandois morte en 901"[1332]. The Cartulaire reproduces a French translation of a declaration by Barthélemy Bishop of Laon dated 1120 entitled "Privilegium de domino Elberto, Viromandensi comite" according to which the bishop declares that he has read the original charter under which "Elbert comte de Vermandois…et sa femme Gertrude [error for Gerberge]" founded Bucilly[1333]. Further research in the original charter documentation is needed to clarify this confusion, not the least of which is that, even if Hérésinde was not the wife of Comte Albert, no other reference has been found to her being the wife of Comte Héribert [I] (see above).]

m [secondly] ([949/54]%29 GERBERGA, daughter of GISELBERT Duke of Lotharingia & his wife Gerberga of Germany ([935]-after 7 Sep 978). Settipani names her as the wife of Comte Albert, and gives her parentage, but does not cite the primary source on which this is based. A list of members of the Cathedral of Paris lists (in order) "Albertus comes, Girberga comitissa, Harbertus, Otto, Lewultus, Girbertus, Gondrada, Ricardus, Harbertus comes…", the first four individuals named apparently being Comte Albert, his wife and three sons, and the last named maybe his brother or nephew[1334]. The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage more precisely has not yet been identified.

Comte Albert & his [second] wife had [four] children:

1. HERIBERT [IV] ([954]-29 Aug [993]). A list of members of the Cathedral of Paris lists (in order) "Albertus comes, Girberga comitissa, Harbertus, Otto, Lewultus, Girbertus, Gondrada, Ricardus, Harbertus comes…", the first four individuals named apparently being Comte Albert, his wife and three sons, and the last named maybe his brother or nephew[1335]. Héribert [IV] succeeded his father in 987 as Comte de Vermandois.

m (before [982/86]%29 [as her first husband,] ERMENGARDIS, daughter of ---. "Comes Heribertus" names "materque mea Pavia…pater meus Otto, eius genitrix, avia mea Ermengardis" donated property to Notre-Dame de Homblières by charter dated [13 Jan/13 Oct] 1045[1336]. According to Ernest Petit[1337], Ermengardis was the widow of Milo [IV] Comte de Tonnerre. The author highlights a charter of Ermengardis Ctss de Vermandois witnessed by Renaud Comte de Tonnerre. He suggests that Comte Renaud would only have done this if he were the son of Ermengardis, although other explanations must be possible. Settipani points out[1338] that Ermengardis is named as the wife of Héribert [IV] in a document of her father-in-law Albert [I] Comte de Vermandois, relating to the abbey of Homblières, dated some time between 982 and the death of Comte Albert (in 987). If the two marriages apply to the same Ermengardis, Comte Héribert must have been her first husband and Comte Milon her second. However, it is not clear that this suggested co-identity is correct, a simpler explanation being that there were two different individuals named Ermengardis. Ernest Petit also suggests[1339] that Ermengardis (wife of Comte Milon) was heiress of Bar-sur-Seine, in order to explain how her granddaughter by Comte Milon, Eustachie, transmitted this county to her husband Gauthier de Brienne. He identified the father of Ermengardis as "Renaud Comte de Bar-sur-Seine" based on two charters, which he dated to 992 and 997, which name "Rainardus comes" whom he identifies with Rainard, son of miles Raoul de Bar, who is mentioned in the Chronicle of St Bénigne[1340]. There appears to be no other evidence of the existence of this person, and Bouchard[1341] points out that the dating of the two charters in question is uncertain. She suggests that it is more likely that "Rainardus" is identified with Renaud Comte de Sens or with "Rainaldus" son of Ermengardis. This of course leaves open the question how Bar-sur-Seine was transmitted to the Tonnerre family. Comte Heribert [IV] & his wife had two children:

a) ALBERT [II] ([985/90]-[1 Feb 1015/1017]). The Gesta Episcoporum Cameracensium names "Alberto Vermandensi comiti, fratri Ottonis"[1342]. He succeeded his father in [1000] as Comte de Vermandois. He abdicated before 15 Jul 1010[1343].

b) EUDES [Otto] ([985/90]-25 May 1045). He succeeded in [1021] as Comte de Vermandois.

- see below.

2. OTTO ([950/55]-after 2 Nov [958/59]). "Ottonem, Alberti Vermandensium comitis filium" is named in the Gesta Episcoporum Cameracensium[1344]. A list of members of the Cathedral of Paris lists (in order) "Albertus comes, Girberga comitissa, Harbertus, Otto, Lewultus, Girbertus, Gondrada, Ricardus, Harbertus comes…", the first four individuals named apparently being Comte Albert, his wife and three sons, and the last named maybe his brother or nephew[1345]. Otto is named with his parents in a charter of Comte Adalbert dated 2 Nov [958/59][1346]. same person as…? OTTO (-[986/87] or after). There appears to be no direct proof that Otto, ancestor of the Comtes de Chiny, was the same person as Otto, son of Adalbert Comte de Vermandois. The Historia Monasterii Mosomense records that "Ottonem comitem" built "castellum…Warcus" (Warcq, Ardennes) in 971, and suggests his affiliation when, in a later passage, it clarifies that "superius dictus Ottho erat comes, Otthonum…Romanorum imperatorum…germanissima progenies"[1347]. The editor of the MGH SS edition of the Historia identifies Otto with the son of Adalbert Comte de Vermandois and Gerberge, daughter of Emperor Otto I's sister[1348]. A subsequent passage of the Historia dates the foundation of the monastery to 24 Jul 971[1349], implying that the events recorded earlier in the text predated this foundation. If this is correct, 971 seems early for Otto de Vermandois to have constructed Warcq in light of his estimated birth date (which appears reasonably robust). Gerbert, in a letter dated to Oct 986, records that "dux Cono pro suo Ottone insidias molitur"[1350]. In the same letter, he also records that "Laudunensis episcopus" left "Dordingum" (Dourdon?) on the advice of "Ottonis et Heriberti" in support of "ducem" (which appears to refer to Hugues Capet). Settipani suggests that "Otto" in this text refers to the holder of Warcq[1351]. However, all other passages in Gerbert's letters which name "Ottonis et Heriberti" (in that order) appear to refer to Eudes I Comte de Blois and his first cousin Héribert [V] Comte de Troyes. It is unclear from the full text of this letter whether "Ottone" and "Ottonis" relate to the same person. "Dux Cono" has not been identified, although it may refer to Konrad I Duke of Swabia. If this is correct, it is possible that the first "Ottone" is a different person from the second "Ottonis" as there is no other passage which links the Blois count to the Swabian duke. Settipani states that Otto died "between 986 and 987", without specifying the basis for this speculation[1352].

- COMTES de CHINY.

3. LIUDOLF ([957]-before 9 Nov 986). A list of members of the Cathedral of Paris lists (in order) "Albertus comes, Girberga comitissa, Harbertus, Otto, Lewultus, Girbertus, Gondrada, Ricardus, Harbertus comes…", the first four individuals named apparently being Comte Albert, his wife and three sons, and the last named maybe his brother or nephew[1353]. Appointed Bishop of Noyon 978, consecrated 979.

4. [ELEONORE . According to the Histoire de Guise, "Gauthier de Saint-Aubert avait épousé vers 986 une sœur du comte de Vermandois…Eleonore", the author speculating on the possibility of a relationship between Gauthier de Saint-Aubert and the later Seigneurs de Guise[1354]. No other reference has been found to this couple.

m ([986]%29 GAUTHIER de Saint-Aubert, son of ---.]

Barn:

Herbert III de Vermandois (953-1015) 953 1015

Otton jag de Chiny ( c956 - c987 ) 956 987

Liudolfe de Noyon ( c957 -986 ) 957 986

Killen jag de Soissons (? -988 ) 988

Geila de Vermandois ( c975 - ?)

Gerberge de Lotharingie (1)

F, #361127, b. 935, d. 978

Last Edited=30 May 2009

    Gerberge de Lotharingie was born in 935.1 She was the daughter of Gislebert, Duc de Lotharingie.1 She married Albert I, Comte de Vermandois, son of Heribert II, Comte de Vermandois and Liégarde de France.1 She died in 978.1

Child of Gerberge de Lotharingie and Albert I, Comte de Vermandois

-1. Herbert III, Comte de Vermandois+1 d. 993

Forrás / Source:

http://www.thepeerage.com/p36113.htm#i361127

There is however strong historical evidence for it.

Children:

• Herbert III, comte de Vermandois
• Otton, qui est probablement le même que le fondateur du comté de Chiny
• Liudolph (v.957 † av.986), évêque de Noyon.
• Geila de Vermandois (v 975- ) [NO]

LINKS

• http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LOTHARINGIAN%20%28LOWER%29%20NOBILI...
• http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#AlbertIdied987B
• http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Ier_de_Vermandois
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerberge_of_Lorraine
• https://www.genealogieonline.nl/west-europese-adel/I57140.php
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalbert_I,_Count_of_Vermandois
  • b. When they married, Albert and Gerberge were well within the seven degrees of consanguinity decreed by canon law at the time. They were third cousins once removed. However this branch of the Carolingians was following its own marital alliance policy irrespective of church canons. See: Régine Le Jan, Famille et pouvoir dans le monde franc (VII-X siècle) essai d'anthropologie sociale (Paris: Publications de la Sorbonne, 2003), pp. 324-25 & 325 table 41. The marriage between Adalbert and Gerberge is an example of what is called affinal "relinkings" (French: renchaînement alliance) a term for a couple descended from common ancestors with multiple marriages between the two families over several generations. These alliances were deliberately maintained outside the control of the church. See: The SAGE Handbook of Social Network Analysis, eds. John Scott; Peter J. Carrington; et al. (London; Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE, 2011), pp. 136-37; Douglas R. White and Michael Houseman, A reticular approach to kinship[permanent dead link], l’Homme (2013), p. 1.