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Helen, Countess of Winchester - Wrong Parental Assignment?

Started by Private User on Monday, March 24, 2025
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The mother of Ellen mac Lochlan, of Galloway on Geni shows as NN , whose connected parents are Ragnall mac Somhairle, Lord of the Isles and Fionnghuala of Moray, Lady of the Isles .

Cawley shows "ROGER de Quincy...m firstly ([before 1223]) ELLEN of Galloway, daughter of ALAN Lord of Galloway & his first wife --- de Lacy ([before 1205]-after 21 Nov 1245, bur Brackley)." Cawley further claims finds no sure source proving who was the mother of Roger's next three children:

CAWLEY IS UNCONVINCED OF WHO GENI CALLS "NN (HELEN?)" BEING A WIFE OF ROGER:
[m [secondly] --- [of the Isles, daughter of REGINALD Lord of the Isles & his wife Fonie ---] (-before 1209). Balfour Paul says that Alan Lord of Galloway married first "a lady unknown, said to be a daughter of Reginald Lord of the Isles by whom he had two daughters"[1152]. He cites Chalmers’s Caledonia, but that says only that “the name of the first [wife] is unknown” without providing any indication of her family origin[1153]. Balfour Paul repeats his suggestion under the Lords of the Isles where he notes a daughter of Reginald Lord of the Isles "said to have married Alan of Galloway", without citing any source[1154]. There is no indication of the basis for Balfour Paul’s statements and no primary source which confirms this person’s parentage and marriage has been identified. Her existence should presumably be treated with caution until some such source emerges. If she did marry Alan, she was not the mother of his daughter Ellen shown below. She was either married before his marriage to “--- de Lacy” or before he married Margaret of Huntingdon: she is shown here, for presentational purposes only, as Alan’s possible second wife.]

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#AlanGallow...

So the mother of Ellen of Galloway should be NN (d/o Roger de Lacy) and not NN (d/oReginald of the Isles)?

NN heiress of "the manor of Kippax" de Lacy
d/o Roger de Lacy, Lord Pontefract, Baron of Halton & Matilda de Clere
x Alan, Lord of Galloway

  • Ellen, of Galloway x Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester

NN heiress of "the manor of Kippax" de Lacy
d/o Roger de Lacy, Lord Pontefract, Baron of Halton & Matilda de Clere
x Alan mac Lochlan, Lord of Galloway

Okay, I think I've sorted it

There remains a difference on these two NN de Lacy wives:

NN (Alice?) de Lacy
NN (Alice?) de Lacy MP
Daughter of John, Constable of Chester, Baron of Halton and Alice of Essex
Wife of Alan mac Lochlan, Lord of Galloway

and

NN heiress of "the manor of Kippax" de Lacy
NN de Lacy (-[1201/06]) heiress of "the manor of Kippax"
d/o ROGER de Lacy, Constable of Chester & MATILDA de Clare
x (< [19 Dec 1200/1206]) ALAN Lord of Galloway

which I shall leave for Erica and Erin to come and look at. If I merge them, I'll just create another difficult.

Appears to be tracking in the right corrective course. Thanks Sharon Doubell !
Ken

I have the wife of Alan mac Lochlan (which differs from Wikipedia where he is Alan mac Roland) as N.N. de Lacy, daughter of Roger and Matilda de Clare. Based in Wikipedia and mostly Cawley.

I have Matilda as the daughter of Roger de Clare and Matilda de Saint-Hillaire

Whenever you are working Oop North, you need to be very watchful for Clare/Clere mismatches. They get mashed up al the time because people do not realize that there WAS a family "de Clere" resident in Norfolk and Yorkshire. They were not the same as the much more prominent South and West De Clares, though there was eventually a little intermarriage. (And IIRC the Cleres never had anything to do with Ireland, whereas the Clares...!)

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